Light fitting wires

Fleeting · Nov 21, 2024

OP how far up does the right side contact in the lampholder protrude?
The picture is not clear but everything indicates it is not polarity biased.

Fleeting · Nov 21, 2024

This is an EN 60238 lampholder and the arrangement of the contacts and the construction of the lampholder make in non polarity biased, yours is like this I believe but a clearer picture at an angle may help.

Murdoch · Nov 21, 2024

But you should make the one at the bottom the live

Fleeting · Nov 21, 2024

Murdoch said:
But you should make the one at the bottom the live

That is not the case read Regulation 559.5.1.206

ProDave · Nov 21, 2024

Fleeting said:
That is not the case read Regulation 559.5.1.206

It is the case if you want to do things to be as safe as they technically can be. An electrician can in a few seconds determine which wire goes to which pin and connect them appropriatelty. Why would you not do that?

Fleeting · Nov 21, 2024

ProDave said:
It is the case if you want to do things to be as safe as they technically can be. An electrician can in a few seconds determine which wire goes to which pin and connect them appropriatelty. Why would you not do that?

But it will be technically safe however you connect it. I'm pushing 60 so know how we used to do things but this change came in years ago but some people don't realise it or accept it.

binky · Nov 21, 2024

ProDave said:
I disagree.

That is an SES Small Edison Screw lamp holder.

The bottom / left contact in that lamp holder touches the bottom of the lamp That should connect to L.
The top / right contact, makes contact with the metal screw thread of the lamp, that should connect to N.

This is important because if someone tries unscrewing the lamp while it is on, they might be able to touch the screw thread part of the lamp, which could be disastrous if that was connected to L

Anyone else back me up on this?

Yes it will "work" either way, but I do not believe it will be safe if connected wrong.

That is the correct way to wire an Eddie.

Stevie R · Nov 21, 2024

Fleeting said:
Can you show the inside of one of the lampholders.

Attached photo shows the whole fitting

Fleeting · Nov 21, 2024

If the off centre contact comes up the side then it does need to be polarity biased but I still can't make it out.

Stevie R · Nov 21, 2024

Fleeting said:
If the off centre contact comes up the side then it does need to be polarity biased but I still can't make it out.View attachment 17280

I’ve attached a better picture

ProDave · Nov 21, 2024

I am convinced the EIT have had a sanity transplant.

How can "how far up the outer terminal" comes affect whether it is polarity sensitive or not.

Fact, the outer terminal makes contact with the outer screw thread body on an ES lamp. Convention and common sense says that connects to neutral because in many cases it is possible to touch that if you try and remove a lamp while it is energised.

Fact. you can insert a finger into the lamp holder when the lamp is removed, you are likely to contact that outer (and slightly taller) contact first. Just because it is a bit shorter does not mean you cannot touch it.

I am dismayed that we now ignore common sense and good engineering practice because someone in a suit has said it is "safe"

Frankly (and I have said it before) the best thing the EIT could do is outlaw the use of ES and BC lamps as an outdated, unsafe form of light fitting. What is the point in making our electrical installations safe in every respect so all live parts are enclosed and can only be accessed by the use of tools, and then still allow the use of lamp holders that allow any fool to touch live parts.

I am glad I am retiring so won't have to be party to this nonsense and can just carry on respecting good sound engineering practice.

poni · Nov 21, 2024

I am with you Dave, the correct way is live to the bottom, but like most things electrical it will work any way round, but one way is safer than the other,

Stevie R · Nov 21, 2024

ProDave said:
I am convinced the EIT have had a sanity transplant.

How can "how far up the outer terminal" comes affect whether it is polarity sensitive or not.

Fact, the outer terminal makes contact with the outer screw thread body on an ES lamp. Convention and common sense says that connects to neutral because in many cases it is possible to touch that if you try and remove a lamp while it is energised.

Fact. you can insert a finger into the lamp holder when the lamp is removed, you are likely to contact that outer (and slightly taller) contact first. Just because it is a bit shorter does not mean you cannot touch it.

I am dismayed that we now ignore common sense and good engineering practice because someone in a suit has said it is "safe"

Frankly (and I have said it before) the best thing the EIT could do is outlaw the use of ES and BC lamps as an outdated, unsafe form of light fitting. What is the point in making our electrical installations safe in every respect so all live parts are enclosed and can only be accessed by the use of tools, and then still allow the use of lamp holders that allow any fool to touch live parts.

I am glad I am retiring so won't have to be party to this nonsense and can just carry on respecting good sound engineering practice.

So that said what process should I be using to wire this fitting to a ceiling rose?

Fleeting · Nov 21, 2024

It isn't polarity biased it does not matter.

poni · Nov 21, 2024

first need to find the core that is connected to the metal body and connect that to the earth/CPC terminal of the rose, then you need to find the core the is attached to the centre/ bottom of the lamp holder, then connect that to the switch live terminal in the rose, and the core that is left must go in the natural terminal of the rose, send a picture of the rose and we can tell where the terminal are

Fleeting · Nov 21, 2024

ProDave said:
I am convinced the EIT have had a sanity transplant.

How can "how far up the outer terminal" comes affect whether it is polarity sensitive or not.

Fact, the outer terminal makes contact with the outer screw thread body on an ES lamp. Convention and common sense says that connects to neutral because in many cases it is possible to touch that if you try and remove a lamp while it is energised.

Fact. you can insert a finger into the lamp holder when the lamp is removed, you are likely to contact that outer (and slightly taller) contact first. Just because it is a bit shorter does not mean you cannot touch it.

I am dismayed that we now ignore common sense and good engineering practice because someone in a suit has said it is "safe"

Frankly (and I have said it before) the best thing the EIT could do is outlaw the use of ES and BC lamps as an outdated, unsafe form of light fitting. What is the point in making our electrical installations safe in every respect so all live parts are enclosed and can only be accessed by the use of tools, and then still allow the use of lamp holders that allow any fool to touch live parts.

I am glad I am retiring so won't have to be party to this nonsense and can just carry on respecting good sound engineering practice.

Contact isn't made until the lamp cap is screwed home leaving the thread shrouded.
It is IET not EIT.

binky · Nov 21, 2024

Fleeting said:
OP how far up does the right side contact in the lampholder protrude?
The picture is not clear but everything indicates it is not polarity biased.

You can see the contact on RHS, it's ses.

Mike P · Nov 21, 2024

Hi Pro Dave. Yes the centre terminal on the SES lamp as you say should be connected to the +ve phase brown/red in the ceiling rose

SPECIAL LOCATION · Nov 21, 2024

View attachment SES LAMP.MOV

I am going to say that I would agreed with Fleeting..

559.5.1.206 has certainly been around since the Yellow book 17th Ed, Amd 3, 2015..
Which I think was a similar time to when recommendations for providing neutrals at light switches was also recommended (559.5.1.208)

So back to SES lamps....

I don't know how thick your fingers are..?
But have you actually tried touching any live parts while inserting, removing lamps?
Or even without a lamp fitted..?

Attached video of my test SES "old Ikea" lamp holder connected to a flex & plug..
I cannot see how polarity would have any adverse effects on any immediate or potential dangers to any users?

Which may be why manufacturers don't provided polarity marked conductors, especially with SES fittings?

However, as a general rule I would still put live on the centre pin!

Fleeting · Nov 22, 2024

You can lead a horse to water @SPECIAL LOCATION but you can't make it drink.

Light fitting wires

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