Scottish Rentals require a current satisfactory EICR.........

I spent the weekend moving my daughter into a rental flat in Elgin. That was 2 trips of truck and trailer loaded with furniture, assembling it all, and then connecting the washing machine.

No 1 fault, the socket for the washing machine was not fixed to the wall, instead a single socket in a surface back box just hanging by it's wires. No means to turn off the washing machine from above the worktop.

No 2 fault, the kitchen worktops have upstands which are quite thick and the wall sockets are very close, so any plug with a stiff flex outlet will not plug in fully.

No 3 fault, a socket in the hall looks to be scorched around the L pin, needs replacing.

No 4 fault, I looked at the CU, a split load Proteous box has 2 spare unused ways, instead of proper blanks, the 2 vacant slots are covered by tape. That tape is all that stops someone putting a finger in and onto the busbar.

And that is of course before doing any actual testing to see if it is otherwise safe. If anybody really gave that a satisfactory EICR they are not fit to call themselves an electrician.

What angers me, is all these are quick fixes, I would probably have fixed them quicker that it would take to write the paperwork to fail it.

I have asked daughter to request a copy of the EICR and gas safe certificate from the letting agent.......

Other issues, the boiler was not working when they got there. The error code suggested no gas so after waiting nearly 24 hours for an "engineer" to visit he pushed a few buttons on the boiler to reset the error and it started. The water pressure gauge is not reading so no way to know if the water is okay or not. Would that be a fail for the gas safe?

Also I noted the flat next door had some kind of frame around the door for something to slot into, so I wondered if that was a flood thing, and sure enough a bit of searching reveals this is a high risk river flooding area right next to the River Lossie, and it has flooded several times the most recent being I think 2007. It is now supposed to be protected by the new Elgin flood protection scheme completed in 2015. Not perhaps an issue for a rental but I would not buy it. The previous flooding history probably explains the wonky / sloping floors, and recent kitchen and bathroom, probably re fitted after the last flood.

Seems to be a common thing with rentals about 9 years ago when my son moved to a rented flat near Telford that had a number of issues, the electrics when tested the RCD had a trip time of 200ms on the 5x test, about a week later I had an interesting conversation with the "electrician" the letting agent sent out I told him about the test and he said it was ok but he would get his tester to check he got the same result I did and then told me it was faulty because his meter gave a red X
The big question is the property compliant with the requirements of the Scottish fire detector legislation
A few years ago when my daughter was looking to rent a flat close to Glasgow it was surprising how many didn't comply

Why would you be conducting a 5 x (RCD) Residual Current Device test?

newfutile said:

Why would you be conducting a 5 x (RCD) Residual Current Device test?

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If you read the post you will understand why

Fault 1 to 4 C3 ( 4 possible C2)
Landlords think a certificate with a list of C3’s as long as your arm is economically acceptable, and ignore them.

Nicky Tesla said:

Fault 1 to 4 C3 ( 4 possible C2)
Landlords think a certificate with a list of C3’s as long as your arm is economically acceptable, and ignore them.

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There is no possible C3 with the fourth fault is a definite C2 for me as it would be hard to say it met the IP4X requirement

But my point is, WHY would anyone just ignore it. How many seconds would it take to insert 2 proper blanks in the CU instead of the tape?

I know it's a rental and not mine so strictly I have no business to mess with it, but next time I go, I am taking some blanks for the CU and some spacers to stand the sockets slightly off the wall so plugs go in properly.

I guess my daughters safety matters more to me than the landlord.

ProDave said:

But my point is, WHY would anyone just ignore it. How many seconds would it take to insert 2 proper blanks in the CU instead of the tape?

I know it's a rental and not mine so strictly I have no business to mess with it, but next time I go, I am taking some blanks for the CU and some spacers to stand the sockets slightly off the wall so plugs go in properly.

I guess my daughters safety matters more to me than the landlord.

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I can only agree with your comment the problem is even with all the legislation it still doesn't stop the rogue / not so conscientious landlord or letting agent from not complying more so now with the lack of rental properties and people are prepared to accept the lack of compliance to secure the rental at any cost

ProDave said:

But my point is, WHY would anyone just ignore it. How many seconds would it take to insert 2 proper blanks in the CU instead of the tape?

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maybe they didn't have any blanks

UNG said:

I can only agree with your comment the problem is even with all the legislation it still doesn't stop the rogue / not so conscientious landlord or letting agent from not complying more so now with the lack of rental properties and people are prepared to accept the lack of compliance to secure the rental at any cost

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the letting agent/ landlord will be arse covered if someone has signed it off, so this is more about the so called sparky who did the cert.

newfutile said:

Why would you be conducting a 5 x (RCD) Residual Current Device test?

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Why wouldn't you be conducting a 5x RCD test 9 years ago????

The BS7671 I was working to around the 2016 to 2017 era required it!

And I was annually inspected to ensure that I knew it was needed!

I am very interested to understand the logic of why you think the 5x test was not needed 9 years ago ?

binky said:

the letting agent/ landlord will be arse covered if someone has signed it off, so this is more about the so called sparky who did the cert.

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That assumes it has it been signed off but even then the landlord and / or the letting agent are ultimately responsible for the choice of contractor carrying out the EICR so IMO do have some liability

The problem with EICR's is how does someone choose a suitable contractor as the NICEIC and NAPIT are not doing the job they claim to be doing and appear to make an assumption that a contractor is qualified, skilled and suitably experienced to carry out a through EICR from a very brief unrelated assessment of some installation work.

10 years ago we took posession of a small house to rent out, and needed an EICR. The electrician told us that there was leakage to earth and the whole house needed re-wiring, so we were very worried about the need for major and expensive work. Then I had a careful look at the certificate and saw that all the insulation readings were identical. He said it was OK to test all circuits connected together but I demanded my money back and got another local company to do it. All it needed was a new cooker. I watched the second chap do the inspection and test, he was extremely conscientious and opened every socket and ceiling rose. But he didn't tell me that a cooker switch within the line of the hob was unacceptable, and wasn't curious enough about how the outside light was fed, so he didn't find the BS1363 socket attached to a lighting circuit inside a cupboard (to be fair I hadn't noticed it myself.) I was told about those very much later by a builder, so I had them changed when building work was done.

The astounding incompetence of the builder and "electrician" who actually did the work is another and quite long story. If I'd accepted the certificate they offered the house would have been left in a somewhat dangerous state.

Tony Woolf said:

Then I had a careful look at the certificate and saw that all the insulation readings were identical. He said it was OK to test all circuits connected together but I demanded my money back and got another local company to do it.

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oddly enough this is correct, the actual requirement for insulation according to BS7671, is for 'the system' not individual circuits. Personally I've always regarded this as a lazy way of testing things.

Tony Woolf said:

so he didn't find the BS1363 socket attached to a lighting circuit inside a cupboard (to be fair I hadn't noticed it myself.)

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again, not actually a problem, the requirements are for protecting the circuits from overloading. So its not unusal to find a socket on a lighting circuit, usually for a TV booster in an attic, clearly plugging in your arc welder would not be agood idea

Tony Woolf said:

If I'd accepted the certificate they offered the house would have been left in a somewhat dangerous state.

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All trades seem to suffer from the idiot brigade...

binky said:

oddly enough this is correct, the actual requirement for insulation according to BS7671, is for 'the system' not individual circuits. Personally I've always regarded this as a lazy way of testing things.

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It is always a good way to start. If you get really good global IR readings then no need to go further. But it it looks poor, then it's time to test individual circuits to see which one(s) are dragging it down.

Tony Woolf said:

He said it was OK to test all circuits connected together but I demanded my money back and got another local company to do it.

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that's because its perfectly acceptable to do them all together. if any circuit has low IR, another testing multiple at the same time won't hide the fault. if its low then test each individually but easier to do it globally. if i was your electrician and you demanded money back because you think its done wrong, you'd be getting told to **** off

Fine. But don't tell me the house needs completely rewiring when you haven't done the tests to establish that.

Tode said:

Fine. But don't tell me the house needs completely rewiring when you haven't done the tests to establish that.

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If nothing else, this thread has shown massive inconsistencies. Those that say it is fine, when it is not, and those that say it needs a rewire when it doesn't.

UNG said:

There is no possible C3 with the fourth fault is a definite C2 for me as it would be hard to say it met the IP4X requirement

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“That tape is all that stops someone putting a finger in and onto the busbar.“
If it stops a finger then it stops a test finger.

Nicky Tesla said:

“That tape is all that stops someone putting a finger in and onto the busbar.“
If it stops a finger then it stops a test finger.

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Until the day the tape runs out of stick, or the nosey real finger presses just a little harder, or peels the tape off.

My point is why leave it like that when it is so easy to fit some proper blanks. Am I alone in carrying a box of assorted CU bits like blanks, labels bits of busbar, even spare terminals and other odds and ends collected over the years.