Any Opinions Please

[Evans Electric]

Just finished a job & customer asks if I can take a look in their  Hot Tub/  bubbling water thingy in the garden . 

 Steam is affecting light fittings and collects on sockets &  spurs. 

Thing is ,i've had a similar problem previously where a customer wanted our sparks to install sockets in an excercise pool & Jacuzzi room .    Our guy was going to wire them , I saw the room as a bathroom & said no .     To solve the argument I asked NICEIC to advise ..........  they said it wasn't a bathroom so anything goes .    I refused to install plugs and we left site .

So I have a wooden outbuilding with a bubbly steaming water thing in it ....along with  2 twin sockets ..2  switched spurs ..a TV set  and a table lamp .

Is it a Hot tub room  or is it a bathroom ?   Just going to check Regs .

The brown thing is the bubbly pool.

Surely Section   701 applies  TBH

 

[ProDave]

Interesting one.

The regs  just mention "bath" and "shower"

Now anyone applying common sense would think that a large vessel of hot water into which you immerse your body is a "bath" even if it blows bubbles.

I personally would NOT install sockets like that, I would apply the 3 metre rule.

 

[Andy™]

its not a bathroom, as scope of 701 is 'bath or shower'

could be said to be 702 for swimming pool, but it doesnt include it in the scope either

 

[Steve3948]

same as swimming pool requirements.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

SECTION 702

SWIMMING POOLS AND OTHER BASINS

scope

702.11  Swimming pools, basins of fountains and the basins of paddling pools

excluding:  natural waters, lakes in gravel pits, coastal areas etc..

IMHO  702.53 applies...

Zone 1 extends 2m from edge of basin

NO sockets to be installed in zone 1.

Page 205.

Hot tub is in my opinion a big paddling pool with bubbles & heat!

Guinness

 

[OnOff]

Bet the fittings wouldn't be rated for the External Influences as in AB, Atmospheric Humidity.....................

 

[Evans Electric]

same as swimming pool requirements.

Thanks Steve.

SECTION 702

SWIMMING POOLS AND OTHER BASINS

scope

702.11  Swimming pools, basins of fountains and the basins of paddling pools

excluding:  natural waters, lakes in gravel pits, coastal areas etc..

IMHO  702.53 applies...

Zone 1 extends 2m from edge of basin

NO sockets to be installed in zone 1.

Page 205.

Hot tub is in my opinion a big paddling pool with bubbles & heat!

Guinness

As usual , on the ball there Specs , I was bogged down on 701  Thanks .  I went from Bathrooms to Sauna,s .

Bet the fittings wouldn't be rated for the External Influences as in AB, Atmospheric Humidity.....................

And yes  OnOff,  they are standard accessories .   He,s fitted enclosed downlights but standard accessories .

The table lamp and the TV set blew my mind TBH , .

I'd best break the good news to the customer .

 

[Sidewinder]

IIRC with research done WRT medical works, and temporary birthing pools, and discussions with IET regs committee members @ Elexx one time, the regs were never meant to cover temporary pools, but they were designed to cover jacuzzi type hot tubs etc. as "swimming pools".

I think a trot to the guidance notes or Mr Cooke's book could be useful.

How quick do you need the info, I'm just off to bed.

There are others with searchable GN's though in electronic form.

 

[Phoenix]

I did a Hot tub cabin for my uncle a little while go (forgot to take pictures though!)

I seem to remember I treated it as a swimming pool. IP rated socket outlets and switches, IP rated 2D light fittings. IP rated consumer unit with RCD incommer (located furthest corner from the pool). Oh, and 8w NM3 EM bulkhead (which also removed any concerns I'd have otherwise have had using RCD incommer CU)

remeber...You can have a socket 1.25m from the edge of the pool if for whatever reason it cannot be located outside of zone 1 and is RCD protected, 0.3m from floor, etc

 

[Steve3948]

In Zone 1, only protection by SELV at a nominal voltage not exceeding 25V a.c rms or 60V ripple free d.c.

The source supply must be outside Zones 0, 1 & 2.

 

[Phoenix]

For a  swimming pool  where  it  is  not  possible  to  locate  a  socket-outlet  or switch  outside  zone  1,  n socket-outlet  or
switch, preferably  having a  non-conductive cover or coverplate, is  permitted in  zone  I  if it  is  installed  outside ( 1.25
m)  from  the  border of zone 0, is  placed at  least 0.3  m above the  lloor, and is  protected by:
(i)     SELV  (Section  414),  at a  nominal  voltage not exceeding 25  V  a.c.  nns or 60  V  ripple-free  cl.c.,  the  source
for SEL V  being installed outside zones 0  and  1,  or
(ii)    automatic  disconnection  of supply  (Section  411 ),  using  an  RCD  having  the  characteristics  spcci lied  in
Regulation 415.1.1, or
(iii)    electrical  separation (Section 413)  for  a  supply to  only one  item  of current-using equipment,  the source  for
electrical separation being installed outside zones 0  and  I.

From the end of 702.53

Please excuse the bad OCRing

Sums up, to me as: Basically wherever possible locate outside zone 1, but if not possible, you can go as near as 1.25m provided you keep 0.3m from the floor as well for an RCd protected point of non metallic construction. There is nothing there to over-ride 702.512.2 though:

H . .:ctric;li  equipmL:nt  slwll  have at  IL:ast  the  following degree of protection according to  BS  EN  60529:
(i)    znncO:  IPXX
( i i)     zone  I : I P X4.  I P X 5 where W<lter jets arc I ikely  to  occur lor cleaning purposes
(iii)    zone  2:  II'X2  f'or  indoor locations,  IPX4  lor outdoor locations,  IPX5  where water jets arc  likely to  occur lor
cleaning purvoses.

So you are limited to masterseal /storm ranges , etc

 

[OnOff]

From the end of 702.53re's 

Please excuse the bad OCRing

Sums up, to me as: Basically wherever possible locate outside zone 1, but if not possible, you can go as near as 1.25m provided you keep 0.3m from the floor as well for an RCd protected point of non metallic construction. There is nothing there to over-ride 702.512.2 though:

So you are limited to masterseal /storm ranges , etc

Schneider do a nice range......................unless funny looking, non symmetrical ones are your thing then go for Contactum  :lol:

 

[Steve3948]

Phoenix - The way I read it in the regs, you are refering to Zone 2.

Switchgear and Control Gear.

In Zones 0 or 1, Switchgear or Controlgear shall not be installed.

In Zones 0 or 1, A socket outlet shall not be installed.

In Zone 2, a socket outlet or switch is permitted only if the supply circuit is protected by one of the following protective measures.

(i) SELV, the source of SELV being installed outside Zones 0, 1 & 2. However it is permitted to install the source of SELV in Zone 2 if its supply circuit is protected by an RCD.

(ii) Automatic disconnection of supply, using an RCD.

(iii) Electrical separation, the source for electrical separation supplying only one item of current using equipment, or one socket-outlet, and being installed outside Zones 0, 1 & 2. However it is permitted to install the source in Zone 2 if its supply circuit is protected by an RCD.

 

[Phoenix]

Read a little bit further on in that reg... unless its been removed by AMD2 ?

 

[Steve3948]

You will note that for Zone 1 in the section I posted it says no socket outlet period, and for Zone 2 one of the following should apply.

The section you mention does not say one of the following, so my interpretation is that all must apply, so SELV only.

Can you have a socket outlet in a room containing a bath or shower at 1.25M ?

 

[Phoenix]

The section you mention does not say one of the following, so my interpretation is that all must apply, so SELV only.

I can see the logic there, however they are mutually exclusive, you can't (well you could but it would be as useful as a chocolate fireguard) on a separated or SELV supply!

Perhaps I ought to ring the NICEIC helpline, but the chocolate fireguard comment normally applies there as well... !