Awkward or not?

[Couleddie]

Bit of a weird job this one. This guy is setting up a car wash business outside a gym. The gym is letting him use their power and water so he asked me to put 2 double sockets outside for him. He has no access to the building so needs to be able to control the sockets from outside. So, I installed 2 32amp radials - one to each socket. Overkill maybe but he insisted on having at least 5Kw at each socket (don't ask me why). The sockets IP66 with RCDs built in. No issues with that. All installed and working. The circuits are both protected at the db by 32A 60898s. No RCD at source.

Today the building caretaker has stuck his beak in and complained about this saying the RCD protection does not cover them if someone comes along and smashes the sockets off the wall, gets a shock and sues them.

I'm a bit confused here. I've provided RCD protected sockets as per 411.3.3 and 415.1.1. but this caretaker bloke is saying I should have put the RCDs on the board. I can see the point he is making but is it really down to me to make provision for stupidity?

To keep him off my back i've told him i'll change the MCBs to RCBOs but it'll cost him. I'm starting to think I C***** this up but i'm i'm not entirely sure.

 

[Graham Lister]

Maybe offer to fit said sockets in padlocked steel enclosure of somekind? If the car washer has to enter gym to reset trips he may not be too keen.

 

[Couleddie]

Maybe offer to fit said sockets in padlocked steel enclosure of somekind? If the car washer has to enter gym to reset trips he may not be too keen.

He wants to do a padlocked box AS WELL. I've already padlocked the sockets so they're impossible to open without the key or a cutting tool.

 

[Graham Lister]

If they are housed in a metal enclosure dont see the need for them to be rcd protected at the DB. If you have just fitted a padlock to the sockets and they are just the weatherproof type fitted to an outside wall then may be prudent to fit the rcbo as the plastic could be quite easy to smash off the wall.

 

[Andy™]

BS1363 only requires a double socket to take 13A between both outlets. 5KW will make the socket fail fairly quickly. some better makes will last longer, but if its an RCD socket, then the conductor through the coil may well be overloaded and a potential fire risk.

easiest & best thing to do with be either 2x 32A sockets, or a 63A socket.

RCBO at board would be easiest, but nothing to stop you having an IP rated enclosure outside with an RCD in and then to the outlets.

where does the cable run inside? im assuming its installed in a way which doesnt require an RCD?

 

[james2391L3]

Rcd protected sockets in a enclosure providing protection against earth fault currents outside and a BSEN610091 RCCBO (type B or C) inside in discrimination,what other protection can you install.

Good luck with that caretaker

 

[Andy™]

why use 2 RCD's? and i dont think you can get a TD RCBO?

 

[Couleddie]

The bloke doesn't have much of a clue. He says 5Kw but in reality he's actually not going to get anywhere near that. All he's going to be using is a vacuum cleaner, a polisher and a high pressure washer. So i'm not overly concerned about the loading.

The cables are clipped direct to the wall to the DB which is about 2 metres away. It's in a virtually inaccessible void so no issues with cable damage therefore no RCD needed.

 

[Andy™]

sounds like its just the caretaker thats the problem. try talking to him about it. failing that, may just be easier to install RCBO's and keep him quiet

 

[james2391L3]

Hi Andy,

You can get BSEN 61009-1 rccbo in types b,c,d, generally used to provide single circuits with earth fault protection,overload protection and short circuit protection,used instead of mcbs,....or if their is no time delay on inbuilt rcd protected sockets. The board( bsen61008-1 )type S is used to give good discrimination with the other rcd the ones outside.

Just an idea. :|

 

[Andy™]

Hi Andy,You can get BSEN 61009-1 rccbo in types b,c,d, generally used to provide single circuits with earth fault protection,overload protection and short circuit protection,used instead of mcbs,....or if their is no time delay on inbuilt rcd protected sockets. The board( bsen61008-1 )type S is used to give good discrimination with the other rcd the ones outside.

Just an idea. :|

im well aware what B C D etc is. im just stating the fact that ive never seen an RCBO with time delay to provide discrimination. if you were to follow your suggestion of RCBO & RCD socket then both RCD socket & RCBO would most likely trip at the same time.

 

[james2391L3]

Hi Andy ,

I was thiking the the outside BS7288 would disconnect in less tham 40ms and the type s the slowest operatig time of betweem300 and 500ms BS4293 type s

All the Best

 

[Andy™]

but ive never seen a time delay RCBO?

 

[james2391L3]

:good luck:HI

(Hager) rccbo BSen61009-1

 

[Couleddie]

[quote name='Andy

 

[Couleddie]

:good luck:HI(Hager) rccbo BSen61009-1

Thanks for that but they won't pay so they're not getting it.

 

[Andy™]

:good luck:HI(Hager) rccbo BSen61009-1

whats with the stupid smilies, random text, and whats an 'rccbo'?!

since you keep ranting on about a TD RCBO, go find a link to one.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Yes, the bloke is an ar5e. I had figured this out already so i'm not surprised. He may pipe down when I suggest to him that the gym pays for it as it's for their benefit and not car wash guy who is already protected. They have their own electrician but he seems incapable of making himself known. A bit like their plumber who wanted me to drill the hole in the wall for a water pipe because he couldn't do it. :| . Had a gut feeling this job was iffy from the start.

May sound like a daft question..

BUT..

Did you agree a formal contract/schedule/specification for the works to be done signed and agreed by both parties and yourself?

that would haver covered you quite nicely for any changes to the spec NO?

With all the chopping and changing of minds and specifications for new or alteration works 99.9999% of the time I get a signed agreement before I go collecting any materials or do any work...

Things can just end up too messy with, You said this I said that, we agreed 'X' oh no we didn't!!!

I worry that the car-wash bloke could legitimately say he passed the electrical design over to your expertise for agreement with owners of the supply...

Not sure you would have much ground to argue back without a formal agreement written down.

:_| :_|

 

[PC Electrics]

It's not as easy to sue someone as you'd think in these circumstances. To be successful, the claiment would have to prove negligence. This is a complex legal term and I don't profess to be any kind of expert in this field, but I would have thought they'd have a hard time doing so. Assuming you've used proper outdoor sockets from a quality source.

That said, you should nip this 'static' in the bud. Why not write to (or go and see) the Manager of the centre explaining that this issue has been raised and asking if he considers it a real risk.

I would say to him that you've used RCD sockets rather than RCBOs because it's a car wash operation, ie water and portable equipment. In the event of an RCD trip due to wet or faulty equipment the wash attendant can reset the RCD easily. Also, the centre would not want unauthorised persons accessing their DB, nor would they want to be regularly calling out their 'electrician' to reset RCDs.

Explain that the sockets are intended for outdoor use and are manufactured to be 'tough'.

You could argue that someone smashing the sockets up so severely as to give rise to a shock risk, would have a similar likelyhood as someone smashing up an outside light and getting a shock.

Depending on the response you get from the manager, you can then respond with a cost to fit RCBOs and moderate the cost according to the response (this would be easier to achieve with a meeting rather than a letter).

Record the outcome, whatever it might be.

 

[Couleddie]

Specs, you are absolutely right and it's something I usually am careful with but this job was one of those 'need it yesterday' ones. No excuses I know but perfection is a trait I have not yet mastered. The car wash guy is Romanian and his english is not brilliant - he also knows very little about what he actually needs so i've tried to explain it in simple terms and keep it all uncomplicated.

PC - you have analysed the job exactly how I did. Unfortunately this is one of those companies who have jumped on the health and safety bandwagon and it's the performance model. You practically need written permission to cough!

I've armed myself with a couple inexpensive of RCBOs from our friends at ECD. I will be suggesting to car wash guy that he takes it up with the management about who pays to have them fitted as it should not be HIS responsibility. As they have an in-house electrician I may suggest HE does it, if he is capable.

Thanks all for the advice, as always. Helps when the confidence takes a little knock