BS7671 history and the future?...

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

We appear to  be the only industry that deals with a problem by creating another one, look at driving for example, do we only produce cars that won't exceed 30 mph in an attempt to prevent speeding? NO! We enforce the speed limits, so that only those who break the law are punished, do we fit all cars with devices to detect if a driver is unfit to drive due to drink? Again no, we tackle the drink drivers. Why if not for the sake of revenue raising should the IET et el, go down the route they have chosen? And that sir is my case for the prosecution.

What????

I know loads of people in other sectors of work who are just as brassed off with apparent unnecessary change....

The old phrase "if it ain't broke don't fix it", is ignored time and time again throughout the workplace...

Friends and family relatives I talk to have all got stories about how bad their work is and all the extra hoops that have to keep jumping through to stay doing what they are doing..

Don't think the electrical industry is any different to many other business sectors TBH!

Its just the general state of the economy and the health & safety culture we live in.. 

As for  'Revenue raising'....  &   'Driving'.....      

pot - black - calling  kettle - the ...   or something like that?

What about "Speed Cameras"   rather than 'enforce' the laws with a few more traffic police and the occasional work of caution...

lets go for the money making option....   bang  3 points £100 fine!!!!

Opps  that's a bit more expensive than a regs book...

We are all entitled to moan about things we don't like.....

But keep it realistic loads of other business have equivalent agro to trawl through....

For those of us one-man-bands working from home & van, you can be thankful you don't have to keep a shop front stocked and open 5, 6 or 7 days a week...

with loads of 'dead money' waiting on the shelves to sell,

or higher overheads like heating / staff / council rates etc..

I think they all tot up to a bit more than a few regs books every couple of years

We have problems, but they are not as bad as some make out.

opcorn

 

[phil d]

What????

I know loads of people in other sectors of work who are just as brassed off with apparent unnecessary change....

The old phrase "if it ain't broke don't fix it", is ignored time and time again throughout the workplace...

Friends and family relatives I talk to have all got stories about how bad their work is and all the extra hoops that have to keep jumping through to stay doing what they are doing..

Don't think the electrical industry is any different to many other business sectors TBH!

Its just the general state of the economy and the health & safety culture we live in.. 

As for  'Revenue raising'....  &   'Driving'.....      

pot - black - calling  kettle - the ...   or something like that?

What about "Speed Cameras"   rather than 'enforce' the laws with a few more traffic police and the occasional work of caution...

lets go for the money making option....   bang  3 points £100 fine!!!!

Opps  that's a bit more expensive than a regs book...

We are all entitled to moan about things we don't like.....

But keep it realistic loads of other business have equivalent agro to trawl through....

For those of us one-man-bands working from home & van, you can be thankful you don't have to keep a shop front stocked and open 5, 6 or 7 days a week...

with loads of 'dead money' waiting on the shelves to sell,

or higher overheads like heating / staff / council rates etc..

I think they all tot up to a bit more than a few regs books every couple of years

We have problems, but they are not as bad as some make out.

opcorn

It's obvious you know sod all about law enforcement! If you speed and get caught, it's a MINIMUM of £100, fine and 3 points, if you get caught you deserve it, there's too many idiots who think 50 or 60 mph in a 30 is acceptable, it isn't, have you ever "cleaned up" the mess after one of these idiots exceeds the speed limit and hits someone? Well I have, a young girl about 13, taken out by some idiot on a motorbike who thought it was fine to do 140mph in a 30 zone!

There's a big difference between doing 80 or 90 on a clear stretch of motorway, and 60 or 70  through a built up area. All too often people get caught, "please officer I've never done it before, give me a chance, I promise it won't happen again". You check on PNC  and find they've got multiple convictions for the same offence, they don't learn, a mate of mine pulled a lad over on the motorway recently, over 90mph, driving like an idiot, and he failed a drugs test, 3 days later on the same stretch of motorway, the same car passes him at speed, it's the same guy driving and once again he fails a drugs test! only this time he's got a more valid excuse, " sorry officer, my partner had a baby last night, the hospital has just phoned and said they can come home", he's quite prepared to not only drive like a tool, but also to do it with his newborn baby in the car!

As for a lot of stuff done by the IET, it's Londoncentric, part P was brought in as a result of an incident in London area, the metal CU fiasco was brought in as a result of the large number of fires in London, and to cap it all they have now, no doubt under the instigation of the LFB, altered the way fire stats are collated, meaning it's no longer possible to pin down exactly how many fires were directly attributable to consumer units.

Yes other industries do have problems, but you name me one that gets the grief our industry gets that affects as many people as it does, there isn't one!

A lot of the general public have never heard of part P, a lot of the public have never heard of the regs surrounding the need to fit metal consumer units, even some of the professionals don't understand them, The number of times I hear so called "experts" saying, "it's illegal to fit a plastic CU in a house", well actually it isn't, there's nothing that says you can't fit a plastic one if, it's in a non combustible( eg metal) enclosure, or the room it's in is lined with non combustible material, so in effect given that the under stairs cupboard in a modern house is plasterboarded and skimmed, if the door was covered with plasterboard on the inside, or fire rated, it would be perfectly legitimate to install a plastic CU in that location.

Unclear information and constant change, serves to do nothing but cause division between the members of our industry and it needs to stop, surely it would be better for us to get on with our job than spend our hard earned cash on unnecessary lettuced dreamt up by someone with sod all practical experience of our industry, note I said practical, meaning someone who's been on the tools, rather than collected a load of pointless bits of paper from some university.

 

[Rob_the_rich]

I have just been searching the draft dpc for AFDDs. It says they may be used, not should or shall be used (421.1.7). So it is left up to the designer.

532.6 mentions them, but only relevant if they have been specified, and relates to where they shall be installed.

So as I see it, they are not required. They are only required if specified by a specifier or designer.

 

[Andy™]

There's a big difference between doing 80 or 90 on a clear stretch of motorway, and 60 or 70  through a built up area.

and the police are usually at the first and not bothered with the second, less to catch so less profits

dual carriage in blaydon. one side national limit. other side 50. guess which side thas the camera

a short 30mph section betwen 2 40 zones (nothing changes, no houses or anything). guess where the van usually parks?

outside school on a morning when all the little brats are running around? where are the police?  somewhere else, like above.

not really much of a surprise that people dont have any respect for police these days

last week sitting at traffic lights, only me in my lane, ambulance comes up behind. providing there isnt a camera, ive got no problem going through as far as neceaary to allow them past. if it was a police car, they would be waiting until the lights changed to green... otherwise id probably end up with a ticket for going through a red light....

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

It's obvious you know sod all about law enforcement! If you speed and get caught, it's a MINIMUM of £100, fine and 3 points,

Actually No...   your opening comment is incorrect...

and its not for the first time some of you assumptions and examples are a little confused or incorrect....

No idea why you go on about doing 60 in a 30?...

But just for the record,  Driving dangerously does not have to involve exceeding the speed limit.

AND  exceeding a speed limit is not always dangerous driving.... 

(otherwise all emergency vehicle would have to adhere to all speed limits so as not to endanger any third party!)

Also as Andy points out....

When balancing a scale of hazard -vs- revenue generated,

some locations where mobile speed enforcement devices are positioned,

are very low on the hazard reduction side...  but high on revenue generating!

In an earlier post you incorrectly imply responsibility for part P was a the death of Mary Wherry 

I remember 2 particular cases, one of which I was involved with, the first was the death of the mp's daughter, responsible in no small way for part P.

A check on the brief time suggests it is more like.....

May 2002 - The consultation document for Part P was issued.

September 2002 - The results of the consultation were published.

13th July 2004 - The first Part P amendment to the Building Regulations was made and laid before Parliament on 22nd of July 2004.

31st July 2004 - Mary Wherry, Jenny Tonge's daughter, was tragically killed.

Getting back to the Electrical industry....

Just as anyone can pick out examples of bad drivers / tradesmen etc...

The reality is that the majority of drivers are actually not to bad....

and a lot of electricians are out there doing a decent days work for a reasonable return...

Yes there are a few hiccups and bumps along the way, but step back a bit and look at a wider perspective.....  

but you name me one that gets the grief our industry gets that affects as many people as it does, there isn't one!

I would guess that a lot of people who are unhappy in there place of work would be of the opinion that their business is the worst,

and no one has as many issues at work as they do....

(At least that's the type of conversations I hear from numerous people in my wider circle of contacts outside of the electrical industry)

Red-tape, rules, regulations and legislation changes are NOT in the sole domain of the electrical industry.

This place seems to be getting far less input than a few years back...

and the input that is there, seems to be more moaning on about how bad things are...   and good they used to be...

Could it possibly be that lack of much positive content discourages many newer members to start inputting their  opinions?

The bottom line is, change happens to everyone...

You name me any industries that are the same now as they were 10, 15 or 20 years ago??

And there is going to be further changes after this lot and the next and the next....

To say constant change needs to stop is a bit like saying lets stop the moon revolving.

I would guess that without an increase in constructive input to places like this,

new members will drop off and the forum could grind to a halt...

I don't put much on here nowadays myself as;

(a) I am busy enough doing work and family things.. and

(b) there isn't a fat lot worth commenting on half the time..    (unless  its just been grumpy old men "when I were a lad" stories)

opcorn

(sorry for drifting a bit off-topic ! :innocent )

Guinness

 

[BlueMeenan]

well that escalated weirdly?

RCDS were a may regulation, then they became a shall! they willin time, they already have a BSE standard in place! have alook at my linkedin account for any more info.

just search paul meenan arc fault what?

 

[Evans Electric]

We never 'ad posts like this ...when I were a lad  :innocent

 

[Andy™]

electricity hadnt been invented then, that was only a few years later

 

[Rob_the_rich]

s well that escalated weirdly?

RCDS were a may regulation, then they became a shall! they willin time, they already have a BSE standard in place! have alook at my linkedin account for any more info.

just search paul meenan arc fault what?

Hi Paul, just read your link (https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/arc-fault-what-paul-meenan-ceng-fiet-miam-milp-pcqi). Thanks.

In it you mentioned "the fact they do NOT work on ring final circuits" is this simply because there isn't a 32A one available? or because of something to do with ring finals as a design?

 

[Sidewinder]

It's to do with the design Rob, think about it, an arc will cause a high resistance which will cause the current to flow in the alternative leg of the ring...

 

[Andy™]

so basically these new fangled fix all devices are useless on our British circuits. so er... did anyone tell the boffins at the IET that we still use circuits they wont work on?

 

[Rob_the_rich]

It's to do with the design Rob, think about it, an arc will cause a high resistance which will cause the current to flow in the alternative leg of the ring...

That makes sense, thanks SW.

 

[Rob_the_rich]

So will they trip a lighting circuit almost every time a lamp blows? That would be a bit of a nuisance.

 

[Sidewinder]

So will they trip a lighting circuit almost every time a lamp blows? That would be a bit of a nuisance.

Very often!

Also the new DeWalt FlexVolt saws in the USA when fitted with the mains adaptor trip them more often than not.

So, either DeWalt have designed a machine that is unfit for sale, or AFDD are unfit for use...

 

[Andy™]

So will they trip a lighting circuit almost every time a lamp blows? That would be a bit of a nuisance.

simple fix: make the lighting circuit a ring

 

[Rob_the_rich]

simple fix: make the lighting circuit a ring

:slap

 

[Tony S]

simple fix: make the lighting circuit a ring

And the problem would be?

 

[Andy™]

And the problem would be?

the dodgy arc fault breaker