C? On An Eicr. / Proximity To...........services Etc

[OnOff]

A question if I may. A ring socket below and behind a sink unit. Currently fed off a 30A rewireable with NO RCD protection (new cu going in shortly). All disconnected at the moment. The socket is in it's original position and is there to feed a dishwasher and washing machine. Ripping the units out isn't an option - they're "captive" by a tiled floor and tiles above the work surface. The existing drops in the wall are in a mixture of 20mm PVC and black conduit. Even if the socket were to be moved then ANYWHERE behind this set of units is potentially vulnerable as there are hot and cold pipes and compression fit isolators for the appliances and sinks at various points i.e. if one were to blow the socket could get splashed wherever. I assume this should get a C1 as it contravenes section 528 in the regs.

I know there's plenty out there like this. Would though it be acceptable to leave "as is" once RCD protection is provided as in I'll have then met the conditions for where the electrical service is in close proximity to a non electrical service i.e. I'll have "protected the wiring system against the hazard likely to arise" by virtue of having fitted "fault protection". I can move the pipes but in reality it will just look better and not be so physically close. It will still have the POTENTIAL to be "sprayed" from above etc. I could of course change this to an IP rated 2G socket. Suggestions appreciated. Rough AutoCAD drawing (apologies - no Snipping Tool on this old XP machine so the grab quality's a bit rough):

Thanks in advance.

 

[Andy™]

C1 is immediately dangerous. something which this isnt.

i think your over complicating things. yes, if a pipe broke it would get wet. but at the same time, if the roof blew off when its raining, then everything could get wet

 

[OnOff]

C1 is immediately dangerous. something which this isnt.

i think your over complicating things. yes, if a pipe broke it would get wet. but at the same time, if the roof blew off when its raining, then everything could get wet

Cheers for the input. Thing is that this socket is the means of isolation for the two appliances, it's down low, dimly lit and accessed by reaching through the back of a cupboard. My thought process ran along the lines of it wouldn't be obvious the pipe was wet when reaching in (even though it's not now). Hence my veering towards C1 if no RCD.

 

[Andy™]

still not C1. at worst, its C2

if the front was broken and hanging on by the cables, then it would be C1

 

[wozz]

As andy said i think you are over complicating things,  you are creating a situation to fit your thinking.  Similar situation could be constructed for all sorts of problems.   

 

[NozSpark]

+1 Andy

For what it's worth I can see a general theme with your work and ideas,,,, you have very very high standards and tend to over engineer your solutions.... This is not a bad thing if your customers are willing to pay the extra as they will be getting a top notch job that will by far exceed the regulations

 

[philbas]

528.3.4 (1) States "The wiring system shall be suitably protected against the hazards likely to arise from the presence of the other services in normal use".

In my house normal use does not include the water pipe breaking and spraying water everywhere and if the pipe did break I think you would notice the flood and be aware   of the problem first, so unless condensation is a problem I don't see an issue (other than the fact it does  not look nice )

 

[OnOff]

Alright, thanks all for bring me to my senses a bit. Funny enough an old boss suggested I might have "savant" tendencies!  :lol:  BTW I spend a big part of my day job re-engineering stuff so it's second nature. Quite often my lot I'm sure DON'T want me to sort the problems as the call outs generally stop overnight and they lose a revenue stream! Tends to get left until the client is on the verge of outing us and then I get sent in.

The works now done to the socket (originally the back box was loose with massive gaps) along with new board will dramatically improve the safety aspect. Job done!

 

[Evans Electric]

Onoff , you are suffering, along with many others , of Watiff Syndrome , very common amongst Sparkys ,

      We get so indoctrinated with regulations and blame culture that , as you say , some go around re-engineering stuff , often for no reward and seeing possible problems with everything they do.

I've worked with a couple of guys who saw danger, problems, prospective blame or an excuse or regulation to bring what we were doing a halt , frequently.

If they worked alone their earnings would drop significantly as they spent a huge proportion of their time correcting and altering stuff nothing to do with them or spending forever inventing reasons not to fix this here or that there. 

You screw something to the wall and they come out with " Wattiff someone very small buys this house , they won't reach that plug "  

Or.

" I think we should move all those cables in case a plumber wants to run a pipe there "

Or.

"I think we should rewire the shower (presumably for nothing) in case someone wants to fit a 25KW shower "!!!    

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

If we genuinely had to be concerned that a compression joint may just randomly blow....

then 99.99999% of electric shower installations would be a C1...

as one helluva lot have a compression elbow inside the shower where the pipe connects...

all within 3 or 4 inches of the big dangerous 6.0mm or 10.0mm  cable coming in with the electricity!

opcorn

 

[ProDave]

I've never known a compression fitting or solder fitting blow.

I HAVE know those awfull plastic push fit things blow, so those next to a socket would worry me (would never have them in my own house)

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

I've never known a compression fitting or solder fitting blow.

I HAVE know those awfull plastic push fit things blow, so those next to a socket would worry me (would never have them in my own house)

If a pipe is exposed to freezing conditions I have seen solder, compression and copper pipe itself blow...

But only if the water inside has frozen!! 

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

I HAVE know those awfull plastic push fit things blow,....

Quite a few showers do now actually have a push fit 15mm inlet... 

for anything up to 10 bar..

opcorn

 

[Sidewinder]

I've personally seen a cast iron elbow 1" thick split & blow at normal mains pressure with no defect in the materials.

This soaked a LOT of electrical kit!

TBH I would not code the socket in the picture with respect to the danger of the pipe leaking.

 

[OnOff]

Thanks for all the responses. I've had a push fit go at mains pressure at home on plastic pipe. Recently at work we had a 15mm compression fitting on copper go causing untold damage. The theory is that it happened shortly after a shut down...........the system cooling down allowed the joint to slip a little then when the system fired up it blew. One of the guys who looked at it did though say that there was a question over the original joint from the looks of things anyway. We've then had probably half a dozen in as many years compression drain ***** blow apart too - theories there are either a bad batch or over tightening.

 

[Sidewinder]

Thanks for all the responses. I've had a push fit go at mains pressure at home on plastic pipe. Recently at work we had a 15mm compression fitting on copper go causing untold damage. The theory is that it happened shortly after a shut down...........the system cooling down allowed the joint to slip a little then when the system fired up it blew. One of the guys who looked at it did though say that there was a question over the original joint from the looks of things anyway. We've then had probably half a dozen in as many years compression drain cocks blow apart too - theories there are either a bad batch or over tightening.

Well, in both of the cases you describe above, neither are normal, both show incompetence, either on behalf of the manufacturer or the installer.

How far do we take such allowances.

Are we supposed to allow for all failure modes of the manufacturers and other so called competent persons undertaking works in the premises, or are we allowed to accept that such materials, components and works are manufactured and installed by competent "persons" if we have to make allowances for all other possible incompetence by all others which we have to allow for in our installs, thus ensure that these are not able to impact in any way whatsoever on "our" installs, then there needs to be major changes in BS7671 along with any, and all  other related regulations and guidance ensure that this is done, on a statute law basis.

 

[kme]

Strange sense of "deja-vu", reading the start of this thread..........I`m certain I`ve read ( and replied to) a thread like this, with a similar pic, months ago!!!

Could be the alcofrolic though (hic)

 

[OnOff]

Strange sense of "deja-vu", reading the start of this thread..........I`m certain I`ve read ( and replied to) a thread like this, with a similar pic, months ago!!!

Could be the alcofrolic though (hic)

No it's NOT the drink.............think I might have posted it up "pre" the new socket and repairs to the back box a while back along with some others..