Spur from a spur. Regulations, problems and solutions - discuss.
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So is the consensus of opinion that I CAN fit two single 13A sockets as a spur on spur and note it as a deviation, because reg120.3 overrides the reg that says I can't, because in this case it will be no less safe.
Until the customer pops a couple of these on because they need more outlets.
http://www.wickes.co.uk/Converter-Kits-Single-To-Double/invt/710075?awc=1563_1282898426_d55a9bee92fb118daddc777efc0c4234
Risteard
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That's a matter of opinion, surely?
Could (part of) the reason for the Regulation be that the IEE are concerned that DIY types may add further points to the unfused spur believing it to be a radial circuit or unfamiliar with the special rules for a ring final circuit?
If so then deviating from the IEE Wiring Regulations would not result in an equivalent degree of safety.
Perhaps a suitably qualified electrical engineer would need to be involved with the design to consider whether it affords an equivalent degree of safety.
Personally I would steer clear of making such a determination hastily.
Dave, how does this sound:
Do what I suggested earlier and swap your double socket outlet for a 13A FCU and a single socket.
This then gives you - ring to FCU to SSO (13 A)
Then....
Spur off the supply side of the FCU and run this cable to a second 13 A FCU which then feeds your second socket outlet.
Both sockets are then rated 13 A for each appliance.
Both sockets are limited to 13A by the individual FCUs.
The cable is limited to 26A by the FCUs - even if someone spurs off the socket outlets at a later date.
Happy days
Do what I suggested earlier and swap your double socket outlet for a 13A FCU and a single socket.
This then gives you - ring to FCU to SSO (13 A)
Then....
Spur off the supply side of the FCU and run this cable to a second 13 A FCU which then feeds your second socket outlet.
Both sockets are then rated 13 A for each appliance.
Both sockets are limited to 13A by the individual FCUs.
The cable is limited to 26A by the FCUs - even if someone spurs off the socket outlets at a later date.
Happy days
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Yes it's one big grey area.
We have a reg saying it can't be done.
We have another reg saying you can deviate from regs providing what you do is no less safe, which IMO would be the case here.
Some people raise concerns about "what if someone changes it" well surely whoever changes it should determine that it IS a ring final before altering it and whoever does such alterations is at fault.
Perhaps I should do it, note the deviation, and carefully fold up a copy of the MWC and put it in the back box of both these single sockets, then there's no excuse for anyone not knowing this is a spur on spur deviation.
With such ambiguity, and a forum full of electricians cannot unanimously agree what's correct, it's no wonder the regs are often flouted as they are not clear in many respects.
We have a reg saying it can't be done.
We have another reg saying you can deviate from regs providing what you do is no less safe, which IMO would be the case here.
Some people raise concerns about "what if someone changes it" well surely whoever changes it should determine that it IS a ring final before altering it and whoever does such alterations is at fault.
Perhaps I should do it, note the deviation, and carefully fold up a copy of the MWC and put it in the back box of both these single sockets, then there's no excuse for anyone not knowing this is a spur on spur deviation.
With such ambiguity, and a forum full of electricians cannot unanimously agree what's correct, it's no wonder the regs are often flouted as they are not clear in many respects.
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Yes I suggested that right at the start, but it's still a spur on spur. I guess two FCU's would mean subsequent changes for a double socket would still be safe.Dave, how does this sound
This then gives you - ring to FCU to SSO (13 A)
Then....
Spur off the supply side of the FCU and run this cable to a second 13 A FCU which then feeds your second socket outlet.
Both sockets are then rated 13 A for each appliance.
Both sockets are limited to 13A by the individual FCUs.
The cable is limited to 26A by the FCUs - even if someone spurs off the socket outlets at a later date.
Happy days
The problem is, Dave, that as the regs stand, anyone can reasonably expect to be able to change any single socket outlet to a double socket outlet without causing danger - even a DIYer.
If you spur off an unfused spur you create a danger for a person who wants to swap a single for a double.
That's why the regulation is there
Risteard
Senior Member
I believe the purpose of that Regulation is more for new innovations since the publication of the Regulations.
Am I missing something here. You say, you dont want/shouldn't be doing spur on spur. Which is reasonable and right. The existing socket is a double and the appliance lead will not reach for 2nd appliance. So, why not just run an extension behind the units as you would have done with the twin. Plug into dsso and screw the socket end to the wall. Explain everything to the punter first explaining the regs as reguards spur on spur, etc.
Job done. regs abided by and punter gets somewhere to plug dryer in without trailing wires all over.
Job done. regs abided by and punter gets somewhere to plug dryer in without trailing wires all over.
Hi Ian;\
I was under the impression that 2.5mm cable, clipped direct, was rated at 27A, (unless someone has been telling me lies), which means my design would be fine.
It's no different from having a double socket on the end of a 2.5mm, unfused spur - this too can be loaded to 26A.
The extra thing that my design gives is 13A protection to each socket outlet to prevent future additions/spurs from causing overload.
The only concern that I would have with designing it that way would be overloading one leg of the Ring Final.
Ideally, the spur would be coming off somewhere near the mid-point of the Ring, so the current is drawn equally down each leg.
I was under the impression that 2.5mm cable, clipped direct, was rated at 27A, (unless someone has been telling me lies), which means my design would be fine.
It's no different from having a double socket on the end of a 2.5mm, unfused spur - this too can be loaded to 26A.
The extra thing that my design gives is 13A protection to each socket outlet to prevent future additions/spurs from causing overload.
The only concern that I would have with designing it that way would be overloading one leg of the Ring Final.
Ideally, the spur would be coming off somewhere near the mid-point of the Ring, so the current is drawn equally down each leg.
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Well that's about how it has ended up.
Yesterday when I looked at the job, I told him there was no easy way to fit the extra socket due to the existing one already being a spur, but told him I would look into it to see if I could find a solution.
I had pretty much decided I would do it the two FCU approach each feeding a single socket, but when I phoned him back just now he said not to bother, he's installed an extension lead under the units for the tumble dryer.
It's just a shame the regs virtually forced the customer to adopt a "less safe" trailing extension lead, rather than me doing a "no less safe" fixed alteration.
Still it's been an interesting discussion, and if something like this crops up again I'll go down the two FCU deviation idea.
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