Can I do ANY DIY work on business premises?

[MisterJD]

We have a small nursery school running out of a custom built building in our garden. A couple of years in and I can see the benefit to add a couple more external sockets. It's straightforward - we're talking doubling up an existing socket or similar and if it were my house I'd do it without thinking twice. But is this legal and/or would it invalidate insurance? I'd always get a pro in for anything I wasn't 100% confident in, but it does irk me not to be self reliant for trivial things.

It's this a slam dunk "no way bro" or can I reasonably do basic jobs/maintenance? If the former I'll just get someone in, no argument.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

We have a small nursery school running out of a custom built building in our garden. A couple of years in and I can see the benefit to add a couple more external sockets. It's straightforward - we're talking doubling up an existing socket or similar and if it were my house I'd do it without thinking twice. But is this legal and/or would it invalidate insurance? I'd always get a pro in for anything I wasn't 100% confident in, but it does irk me not to be self reliant for trivial things.

It's this a slam dunk "no way bro" or can I reasonably do basic jobs/maintenance? If the former I'll just get someone in, no argument.

Not sure I would agree with your perception of Trivial things....?

Putting a shelf up, hanging a door, bit of tiling, etc.. etc.. are trivial low risk things in my book..

Whereas, electricity, invisible, no sound, can't smell it..
But if not done correctly can kill a healthy adult in less than a second...
it NOT a trivial issue...

It is very easy to make something work..
and as you say, if you are wiling to take that risk where only you are involved then DIY domestic electrical work is still legally permitted..

BUT..
To make sure any alteration will fail safe, is a bit more involved requiring calibrated test equipment and some specific tests, results of which should be documented on an electrical certificate..

This is the bit where you would not have a leg to stand on if anything untoward happed to a third party whilst on your property...
And as you describe a nursery school, this involves persons who are even more vulnerable to the dangers from unsafe electrical work..

If you have some means to prove your alterations comply with the current issue of BS7671 (wiring regulations) and all relevant building regulations such as Part-P, and have the relevant signed documents confirming compliance then all is good..

If not... then best get someone in who you can pass the blame onto if something does go belly up later!

 

[MisterJD]

I think I'd say a shelf is potentially dangerous, if it's mounted high and fails it could easily kill or wound someone!

But the question is really not to argue "what can I actually do safely" it's "what am I allowed to do legally?" For instance I understand it's not just unwise but illegal for me to do ANY work on my gas pipes... No it's no buts regardless how easy I think it is or if I agree or not. Similarly there are some electrical jobs I AM willing to take the risk on if it's legal... but I am NOT willing to break the law.

 

[Andy™]

yes, you just need to be competent. but if you get it wrong, and its probably someone else who will end up dead / injured

you seem to think its unwise to do gas but happy to mess about with electrics? electric can kill far easier than gas

 

[Sparksfly]

You have to be competent to do the work & would be liable if anything went wrong.
Do you have public liability insurance for diy/electrical work?
A two year old can put wires together but will struggle to read BS7671 (as will most adults).
Can you test your work on completion to make sure it is safe?
Is it safe to extend of the existing?...I wish we had Xray vision and one test to get all the answers but I've lost my crystal balls

 

[Murdoch]

Insurance, competence, calibrated test kit & certificates.

If you have all 4 of these then crack on

 

[MisterJD]

Insurance, competence, calibrated test kit & certificates.

If you have all 4 of these then crack on

So are you saying that it YOU retired, and all your certification/accreditation/insurance lapsed and you no longer had the specialist testing kit, you would not do work in a similar scenario to myself but would hire someone?

That's probably the starkest way I can put my original question.

 

[Fleeting]

Are you fully conversant with the E&WR 1989 because this is the legal document which would cover the 'trivial things' you intend to do. Like most DIY people I suspect you fully understand the technical aspects of circuit protection for example, the trivial things.

 

[Andy™]

So are you saying that it YOU retired, and all your certification/accreditation/insurance lapsed and you no longer had the specialist testing kit, you would not do work in a similar scenario to myself but would hire someone?

That's probably the starkest way I can put my original question.

probably, because i would still know what i am doing. you havent said how competant or qualified you are with electrics. if you are as above, crack on and do it yourself. if your a desk jockey who's watched a video on youtube of someone wiring a socket and think you can do the same, then no.

 

[MisterJD]

Are you fully conversant with the E&WR 1989 because this is the legal document which would cover the 'trivial things' you intend to do. Like most DIY people I suspect you fully understand the technical aspects of circuit protection for example, the trivial things.

If you've done your job properly when you do the original install, isn't the whole point that the system is inherently safe from children, animals, bungling DIY-ers? That is a serious question.

I ask you the same question I asked Murdoch... if you were a former sparkie with the skills but no fancy testing kit and lapsed accreditation, would you do electrical work yourself in my shoes or hire someone?
If it's a legal requirement my judgment on my skills is irrelevant - I don't avoid my MOT because I'm a professional mechanic and know the car is fine, I get it done because that's the law and any conversation about competence is moot.

 

[revor]

When assessing risk there are 3 things to Consider.
How likely is it to happen.
How noticeable or evident it would be if it were to go wrong
How serious would the consequences be.

If I was doing the job I would feel competent to do it but would not because the consequences of it going wrong, even if risk of that happening would be low, would be very high. Also there are legal requirements that you have to ensure and demonstrate a safe working premises for staff and visitors.
I would recommend you getting in a properly set up qualified person to do the work. The cost if that is your concern can be put on your books as a legitimate expense.

 

[Andy™]

If you've done your job properly when you do the original install, isn't the whole point that the system is inherently safe from children, animals, bungling DIY-ers? That is a serious question.

I ask you the same question I asked Murdoch... if you were a former sparkie with the skills but no fancy testing kit and lapsed accreditation, would you do electrical work yourself in my shoes or hire someone?
If it's a legal requirement my judgment on my skills is irrelevant - I don't avoid my MOT because I'm a professional mechanic and know the car is fine, I get it done because that's the law and any conversation about competence is moot.

asking a question and not giving the full situation then complaining the answers are not what you want isnt helpful. you been going on about what if you were a retired sparky. if you had mentioned that at the start, youd probably get better answers to suit the situation. or if that isnt the case, then why are you mentioning it

 

[MisterJD]

probably, because i would still know what i am doing. you havent said how competant or qualified you are with electrics. if you are as above, crack on and do it yourself. if your a desk jockey who's watched a video on youtube of someone wiring a socket and think you can do the same, then no.

Then it becomes a matter of personal judgement where you draw the line... change a bulb? Of course. Change a plug or replace a blown fuse? Sure. Replace a single-gang outside socket (mounted 6' up that only I use to plug tools in and is not accessible to customers) with a 2-gang version? I'm confident but it's a bit of a grey area, probably I'd do it. Replace an internal 2-gang socket with one that has USB sockets in... no I draw the line there as it's a socket in reach of customers/staff. It's a .01% chance of a problem but that would be where I personally draw the line if the law allows me to.

 

[MisterJD]

asking a question and not giving the full situation then complaining the answers are not what you want isnt helpful. you been going on about what if you were a retired sparky. if you had mentioned that at the start, youd probably get better answers to suit the situation. or if that isnt the case, then why are you mentioning it

I asked what the legal position was in my original question. I clarified this several times, but I'll try again: can someone who is not an accredited, insured professional electrician legally do any electrical work on a business premise?

I mentioned retirement only because this highlights the difference between competence and legality. I'm not asking for advice which tasks I personally can/can't do I'm asking if I can do anything - even if I know what I'm doing. I thought it was a simple question

 

[Fleeting]

Then it becomes a matter of personal judgement where you draw the line... change a bulb? Of course. Change a plug or replace a blown fuse? Sure. Replace a single-gang outside socket (mounted 6' up that only I use to plug tools in and is not accessible to customers) with a 2-gang version? I'm confident but it's a bit of a grey area, probably I'd do it. Replace an internal 2-gang socket with one that has USB sockets in... no I draw the line there as it's a socket in reach of customers/staff. It's a .01% chance of a problem but that would be where I personally draw the line if the law allows me to.

It is not relevant where the accessory is located Regulations do not take this into consideration nor is it considered the nature of the person, for example adults or children. Even the replacement of a socket outlet which can be considered maintenance should still have a modicum of testing. You clearly belief this is within your skill set like most people who believe fiddling with a few wires is trivial because 'it works', this is a naive attitude to have. I suggest you consult your insurance company and ask them.

 

[Andy™]

legally, yes, just comply with EAWR etc

 

[Murdoch]

So are you saying that it YOU retired, and all your certification/accreditation/insurance lapsed and you no longer had the specialist testing kit, you would not do work in a similar scenario to myself but would hire someone?

When I’m retired the I may do little jobs in my own home

But absolutely nothing else

Retirement isn’t far away

 

[Sparksfly]

Phew!! ....who thought it would get this hot.... Life is grey.
Anyway...I just fill out a MEIWC/EIC for completing small jobs and sign it so I am liable. ...why?....because it is the right thing to do.

 

[binky]

I asked what the legal position was in my original question. I clarified this several times, but I'll try again: can someone who is not an accredited, insured professional electrician legally do any electrical work on a business premise?

I mentioned retirement only because this highlights the difference between competence and legality. I'm not asking for advice which tasks I personally can/can't do I'm asking if I can do anything - even if I know what I'm doing. I thought it was a simple question

the legality is you need to be competent to do the work. In short basic swapping a broken socket, any numpty with a neon screwdriver can do that as it is regarded as maintenance. Altering ccts, including adding sockets falls out of that category. Only issue, as pointed out above is insurance should something happen, and lack of test gear to ensure you have done it right. No need to be registered for commercial works.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

I asked what the legal position was in my original question. I clarified this several times, but I'll try again: can someone who is not an accredited, insured professional electrician legally do any electrical work on a business premise?

I mentioned retirement only because this highlights the difference between competence and legality. I'm not asking for advice which tasks I personally can/can't do I'm asking if I can do anything - even if I know what I'm doing. I thought it was a simple question

If you are a retired electrician, you will be fully aware of the relationships between H&S, EAW, BS7671 etc..
and you will understand the difference between domestic dwelling and a workplace...

And how the various legal aspects interrelate to each other...

You will be well aware of the design, testing, certification aspects required to verify any alteration, temporary or permanent, is electrically safe and compliant with BS7671 and thus provide adequate defence should any workplace legal issues arise..

Obviously with such knowledge, you should be able to answer your own question, without any further need to try asking again..

Your fundamental question is if it is a domestic dwelling or a place of work.. e.g. does someone earn monetary gain from other parties using goods or services provided at this premises where you intend doing electrical alteration work?

All you need is someone to provide the relevant signed declarations on an electrical certificate,
to give H&S executives the paper trail to undertake any investigations they consider necessary.

If you can do this...
And you have sufficient insurance to cover your back if it does go belly-up, then as Murdoch said, Crack On!