Choosing a new heating system advice.... please

[fatbob88]

Hi folks,

First of all let me explain the situation I find myself in.

I have recently had a gas safe engineer carry out a landlords safety check (CP12 is that what they are still called, I cannot see that reference number on the report any longer?) at my investment property, a one bedroom 2nd/top floor flat in a block of fifteen. He advised me that regulations have changed and he would have to mark the flu on the gas warm air heating unit as not to current standards. He further informed me that I had about a year to bring it up to standard.

The flue vents out vertically through the ceiling and up out onto the flat roof, previous engineers have been satisfied after doing a visual inspection and a smoke test. However the engineer said that the new regulations require the whole length of the flue pipe to be inspected which can't be done because approximately 2 feet is concealed by the flat roof structure. My first thoughts were to have the flue redirected but a hole would have to be cut in the cupboard in which the unit is housed, a ninety degree bend in the flue pipe across the main hallway into the flat to the nearest outside wall. I imagine if it were possible it would be costly and unsightly, the flue pipe would be above head height but below the ceiling. The unit is very old now and my intention was to replace it with a newer version from the same manfacturer with the minimum of fuss, that is disconnect and remove the old one and slide in a new one in it's place, this would appear not to be an option now.

Ok, obviously my next thoughts were a combi boiler so I had my lettings agent send up their gas engineer to give me a quote for a full central heating system. At this point I should mention the flat has concrete floor and brick walls, it would only need four rads, one for the hallway, living room, bedroom and bathroom. There's no space in the kitchen for a rad, it has an electric plynth heater. The gas engineer came back and said that I'd need to consider electric heating because it would be too much work and upheavil to put in rads and pipework because of the concrete floor and also the pipework would have to run around the kitchen in an unsightly position just above the worktops or to be more precise just above the upstands. The kitchen is quite new and smart so I obviously do not want to spoil it. I should also mention that there are fitted wardrobes in the bedroom which would also get in the way of pipework.

So that seems to leave me only with an electric heating system option. Not that I'm averse to this I did not mind it when I lived in a one bedroom flat before with storage heating and I like the low maintenance and no yearly CP12 reqiurement. However there may be a fly in the ointment here as all the electricity meters for the block of fifteen flats are housed in a cupboard on the ground floor (my flat is on the second floor) so I do'nt know how big of a problem that would be if a needed a white meter installing inside the flat? Having said that I am aware that there are now some super efficient electric heaters on the market which may be better than storage heaters that can be wired into 13 amp sockets?

Thanks for reading if you've got this far and any help would be much appreciated.

 

[Technician]

Morning; a lot of guys in your situation are considering

the same move; The installation only has to be given a

PIR at 5 year intervals compared to an annual with the

gas safety check.

Night storage IS effective, though not the preferred option

for some but you should also consider how well the flat

is insulated.

Another factor is the gas supply. You could have wall mounted

gas heaters installed but that means an annual check.

If N/S is installed it will mean a new meter and the conductors

running up to the flat from it. The conductor length will be

considerable and thus costly.

There will be a tariff change for the white meter and the flat

occupier will be paying a gas bill and elec bill on a set of

higher tariffs for day use of electricity even though night use

is a pittance.

Using these plug-in heaters limits you to 2 kW per unit. The

regs now state that loads over 2kW should not be plugged into

ring or radial sockets.

The fact that it is only a one bed flat may make this feasible.

HTH

 

[Doc Hudson]

A competent heating engineer should be able to run copper pipes very neatly on the surface, but the cost of copper has become prohibitively expensive and plastic pipe just never looks neat surface run, in my opinion. I do know of some flats with electric heaters, approx 1.7kW each running off the standard circuits. But these are middle block flats with few external walls. i.e. other flats above, below and to one side. Do any of the heater manufactures have any calculation links for size of rooms, external internal walls etc to give the required sizes you would need for your rooms. You could then identify if they could be run off the standard circuits without overloading your cables.

Doc H.

 

[ProDave]

My advice for heating a rental property is completely different to what you would want to do for your own house.

What you want is something reliable, that needs no, or infrequent servicing, and is safe.

And the winner of that is electric heating, usually in a combination of storage heaters and panel heaters.

We have two rental properties, and the one with storage heaters never gives any trouble whatsoever. The other with oil fired central heating needs annual servicing and breaks down about once a year.

Perhaps as you have radiators already you might want to consider an electric boiler. That heats the water when needed in just the same way as a gas or oil boiler. you need to combine that with an Economy 7, or preferably Economy 10 tariff if that's available from your supplier.

Unlike storage heaters, you would only need the one feed from the meter to your flat, so no major rework, and it just need the meter in the cupboard downstairs changed for a dual rate E10 tariff.

you then set the boilers time switch to heat the flat in the morning while it's still on the cheap rate, and (if you have E10) set it again to heat up during the mid day cheap period. Most of the evening heating will unfortunately be at the peak rate.

 

[Andy™]

Theregs now state that loads over 2kW should not be plugged into

ring or radial sockets.

no it doesnt. it does say load current in any part of circuit should be unlikely to exceed for long periods ... this can be achieved by .... connecting cookers, ovens and hobs over 2KW on their own circuit

this is also in appendix 15. it is not a regulation

nothing anywhere to say you cant plug anything over 2kW into a socket

 

[PC Electrics]

Dave

the OP stated it's a warm air set up, so no radiators.

No need to run new tails from the basement. Just have the meter changed to E7 or E10. Split the tails at the top end and install a new small board controlled by a timer and contactor to run your new heating in parallel with your cheap rate times.

Keep the overnight load down by fitting wall mount fan heaters (24hr supply) in the kitchen and bathroom. Then you only need 3 storage heaters, for the hall lounge and bedroom.

You don't say where you are? Someone here would be able to help if you can give a location.

 

[fatbob88]

Wow! Some great and quick replies, thanks all.

I think the new year is going to be a challenging year for me, this morning I just got a letter from my landlord the local housing association saying they had done a fire risk assessment and safety inspection in the block. The upshot of which is that the gas meters would have to be moved from the cupboard on the ground floor (different cupboard to the ones that houses the leccy meters) to an outside location at my expense! I take safety issues serioulsy and understand the need for improvements but what the hells going on in the gas industry, first my heating unit and now the gas meters!! Fortunatley it will take the landlord at least a couple of months to get tenders in etc before they start work.

From reading the replies it looks like some form of electric heating may be the way for me to go. I'm a little confused, after National Powergrid and British Gas (current electric supplier)played tennis with me on the phone today. Eventually I spoke to someone at british gas who sounded like he knew what he was talking about. He told me that current regulations require that the main cut off switch for the electric for the flat needs to be near the consumer unit therefore the white meter would need to be installed near to the consumer unit inside the flat along with the main fuse and I'd need to get Northern Powergrid to extend the service cable to accomodate for this.

PC Electrics, your idea sounds good but it seems like it contradicts what I heard from British Gas. I think you'll need to put your second paragraph in laymans terms for me, does that mean I will not have to have the service cable extended? I'll also need an emersion tank as the current water is heated by an old medway wall mounted gas heater. The property is in Chester le Street in county Durham if there is anyone nearby.

Perhaps I could get away with the plug in radiators as the flat has cavity wall insulation and is double glazed. I don't know about insulation for the flat roof, the roof covering was renewed in 2002 so I think perhaps there is some insulation up there. However the last thing I want is my tenants lumbered with unecessarily high bills.

Cheers all.

 

[Andy™]

give me a shout if you want me to look at the job - im in shields

 

[Technician]

Andy I take your point about the informative appendix.

I have noted that all new plug-in heaters are rated at

2kW maximum.

While I read the appx and see that nowhere in it is the

word "shall", I also read the intent of the appendix as

limiting the load on any one socket to 2 kW and that it

is supporting reg 433.1.

"Every circuit shall be designed so that a small overload

of long duration will not occur."

It is a matter of interpretation but yes, there is nothing to

prevent a load in excess of 2kW in any one socket.

P.S. whereabouts in Shields are you?

 

[ProDave]

Fatbod88

Can you clarify something for me.

You talk initially about the gas heater problem in your investment property.

Then you later talk about YOUR landlord wanting to move the meters.

Are these both the same property you are talking about? if so I'm confused why your investment property has a landlord? Surely YOU are the landlord.

I just want to understand which post refers to which property, or are they all about the same property.

 

[Andy™]

P.S. whereabouts in Shields are you?

near the nook. although if your stalking me, im from wales. somewhere around Swansea!

 

[Technician]

Used to live on Mowbray Road, then the Lawe Top.

Had a part time job at the Criterion on the end of

Ocean Road.

Great heavens, that was an education.

:slap

 

[Andy™]

been working at lawe top this morning

i think the criterion is now closed

where are you living now?

 

[fatbob88]

[quote name='Andy

 

[ProDave]

Thanks for your input Dave, it's the same property. Just to clarify, as it's a flat I am a leaseholder so therefore I have a landlord who owns the freehold of the block who I pay my service charges and ground rent too every year. I'm also a landlord to the tenant who rents the flat from me.

Thanks for the clarification.

I guess it's the freeholder making up his own rules, I hadn't heard of the sort of meter moves you are talking about as a general thing.

I own a flat that we rent out, but up here in Scotland property law is different, and leasehold is virtually unknown. Instead we jointly share the freehold with the flat above (low rise in our case) so there's no management company and no ground rent to pay. If something needs doing that affects a joint part, say the roof needs repairing, we just get the job done and split the bill equally. Nobody but me, or the DNO is going to tell me to move the meter.

 

[fatbob88]

Thanks for the clarification.I guess it's the freeholder making up his own rules, I hadn't heard of the sort of meter moves you are talking about as a general thing.

I own a flat that we rent out, but up here in Scotland property law is different, and leasehold is virtually unknown. Instead we jointly share the freehold with the flat above (low rise in our case) so there's no management company and no ground rent to pay. If something needs doing that affects a joint part, say the roof needs repairing, we just get the job done and split the bill equally. Nobody but me, or the DNO is going to tell me to move the meter.

That's a much more sensible way to do things and I believe there's none of this gazumping/gazundering nonsense under scottish law when purchasing property! Who's the DNO by the way?

My landlord is a reputable housing association, I've also been notified by National Grid that they are soon to replace the gas service pipes in the street of my own home and have said it may also be necessary to change the position of my gas meter to meet current safety regulations. Anyway, I'm going to speak to GasSafe to find out what exactly are the regulations.

 

[NozSpark]

The DNO are the District Network Operator,,,, they are the company who own and maintain the electricity network in your area

If National Grid are replacing the steel service pipes with plastic ones then they will want to mount the meters externally,,, but that will be at their cost.

They are doing the same all over the country, the old pipes are starting to fail and need replacing.

 

[Andy™]

if they want it moved, then let them move it at their expense

 

[Nicky Tesla]

As regards no servicing of storage heaters, i am often getting called out to reset thermal switches on these things. They overheat when occupants put clothing or towels over them to dry out. The occupant simply phones to say my heating doesn't work, so you are obliged to check, and then denies placing anything over them.

 

[fatbob88]

The DNO are the District Network Operator,,,, they are the company who own and maintain the electricity network in your areaIf National Grid are replacing the steel service pipes with plastic ones then they will want to mount the meters externally,,, but that will be at their cost.

They are doing the same all over the country, the old pipes are starting to fail and need replacing.

Thanks for the clarification and yes National Grid are replacing the steel service pipes with plastic ones in my street where I live not in the street where my investment property is located. It's my landlord who are organising the repositioning of the gas meters at my investment property, they identified some required safety work after a fire risk assessment and safety report. No details were provided but I had a light bulb moment today after speaking to Gas Safe and I think the issue has to do with the fact that the block does not have a fire escape so the only route out in the event of fire is down the stairs in the communal areas. If a fire started on the ground floor where the gas meter cupboard is located and pierced the gas main then this would probably prevent anyone from the escaping from the floors above via the stairs.

Back to the issue of replacing the heating system in my investment property, it has been suggested to me that I should look into the viability of having a Mitsubishi ecodan air source heat pump installed. Obviously this has pipework which I was hoping to avoid primarily because of the difficulty of routing the pipework in the newish kitchen (see my first post) but this could probably be remedied by locatin the pump on the outside wall in a more convenient position for the pipe run. Anyone have any experience of this form of heating?