Client interference

[johnb2713]

I don’t know what your business did but how would you deal with customers who meddled with a part installed solution ?

We did and still do deal with this situation in our IT business. Customer try to build / fix or modify their PC's, end up in a mess and we sort it out. Ditto with networks on site they will add cabling etc but thats fine, were charging them an hourly rate, if their help creates more work thats more pay.

 

[johnb2713]

Not sure why you think that

It all seems a very militant outlook, akin to union response in the 60's

I believe that is called routine maintenance, fitting said tyres to the rims is a different matter although most of the skill is operating the machine so do you go to your local tyre bay and ask to fit your own tyres

Maybe not but I might take the wheels off to help.

What if said work is covered by dot and dab or plastered over how do you make sure it is done right and installed to the regs it could have dodgy DIY taped up joints that anyone checking the install would never know about

If it passes the tests then it's all good surely, why is that any different to you guys doing an inspection report, you dont remove wall boards, ceilings and floors to check for taped joints.

I've had it a number times where the cable sheathing didn't look right when installing the cable, on a couple of occassions when we had concerns about the possible longevity of the cable we got the manufacturers in to verify it was ok to use and got written performance guarantees against premature failure

That sounds a lot of trouble for both you and the manufacturer to stop a job and get this agreement in place rather than just replace the sub standard cable with a known good item.

There are not many people who want the responsibility of signing off third party installation work that can test ok when new but once used for a little while can throw up problems if the failure is severe the guy or gal whose name is on the cert is on the hook and in the firing line

Surely not if it's documented what the customer did himself, why would you be in the firing line?

 

[Andy1733]

I understand John's point of view and I kind of agree that the bloke wanting to do some of the install himself is no big deal. Though when it's a new build the building regs are strict with codes the electrics have to comply with.
I would have a word with the home owner and explain the you can only test and certify the work you have done and because he is installing additional fittings those wouldn't be covered under the building regs so it could cause him problems when it comes to sign off.

OP when you say he's trying to give you advice. In which way? Obv he's rubbed you up the wrong way so could it be he's only looking for information. Could you give an example please.

 

[Andy1733]

I find this quite hard to understand. If I employ you guys to do some work for me, if I want to do some as well I really dont get what your problem is. I'm paying you to do work for me, whats the problem? If I fit some lights to a wall and ask you to connect to the switch and CU then thats what you do, again I'm paying for your time.

This happens regularly with most trades though it's usually discussed with the expert. Sparky's are a sensitive bunch and imo are best to leave alone.
My trade is a plasterer so as part of the form we hate all Sparky's (love you all really )
In the 20 plus years Ive been property developing I've used 3 different sparks. The first one did 1 job and was shown the door. The other 2 I still use. I give them a spec, they do it. I pay them. Tbh I never understand people employing an expert then trying to do part of the job themselves..

 

[binky]

We did and still do deal with this situation in our IT business. Customer try to build / fix or modify their PC's, end up in a mess and we sort it out. Ditto with networks on site they will add cabling etc but thats fine, were charging them an hourly rate, if their help creates more work thats more pay.

Now imagine the customer buggering up your work as you are trying to fix it...

 

[binky]

My trade is a plasterer so as part of the form we hate all Sparky's (love you all really )

Mudslingers and fillers of back boxes with sharp trowels ......

 

[Andy1733]

Mudslingers and fillers of back boxes with sharp trowels ......

You beast. I think you mean Artisan

 

[binky]

You beast. I think you mean Artisan

Piss artisan

 

[johnb2713]

Now imagine the customer buggering up your work as you are trying to fix it...

The reality is the customer often runs the cables for us which is really helpful.

 

[Murdoch]

Bottom line, I quote to do the whole job, if the customer meddles it could easily cost more ....... if they do bits the bill doesn't drop.

 

[johnb2713]

Bottom line, I quote to do the whole job, if the customer meddles it could easily cost more ....... if they do bits the bill doesn't drop.

Absolutely, no problem with that.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Hi Guys,
Just looking for opinions, I'm on a fairly big new build house , it's one of those jobs that I can leave to go and do other jobs but whenever I return the client, a professional person who thinks electrical work is easy as it's only 2 wires, as does just about every other trade,anyhow whenever I return to the job the client has fitted something, outside lights, although only the loop side cos he can't do the first light, outside sockets, internal lights, offering me advice even though I'm over 40 years in the game.My query is ,how would.you guys handle.this.Cheers

My thoughts...

1/ If it is a fairly big new build... that would inevitably involve multiple site visits...
Unless it is a regular good previous customer who you have done multiple jobs for in the past...
Then a clearly specified written schedule of works would have been agreed prior to commencement..
And invoicing / payment terms also agreed..
(This type of work is pretty much impossible to accurately quote.. so allowances for variations have to be considered)

2/ Changes of specification part way through a large job are not uncommon...
Which in principle is not much different to a customer, (or A.N.Other Third Party), doing a little bit of work themselves here and there..
e.g. customer decides that a door is going to swing in the opposite direction.. so light switch has to move to opposite side of door...
Or, wants extra socket outlets / outdoor socket / TV-Data socket / Downlights not pendant.. etc.. etc..

3/ If any changes part way through a job will affect the previously expected costs... then just amend invoices accordingly...
unless the amendments are significantly less than originally specified...
in which case... still charge very near the original amount.. for doing possibly less than originally agreed???!

I understand John's point of view and I kind of agree that the bloke wanting to do some of the install himself is no big deal. Though when it's a new build the building regs are strict with codes the electrics have to comply with.
I would have a word with the home owner and explain the you can only test and certify the work you have done and because he is installing additional fittings those wouldn't be covered under the building regs so it could cause him problems when it comes to sign off.

OP when you say he's trying to give you advice. In which way? Obv he's rubbed you up the wrong way so could it be he's only looking for information. Could you give an example please.

The bottom line is you only have to design, install, test, certify your own work..
If you cannot fully describe the extent of your works covered in the small box on the default certificate..
then add additional page(s)....
It is NOT your problem to fully account for 100% of a whole installation..

Not much difference to a minor works when adding an additional socket to an existing circuit....
where you have no idea about who installed and/or tested, (or not), the full extent of the original circuit,
prior to your additional socket + cable!!!

 

[Gerry E]

I find this quite hard to understand. If I employ you guys to do some work for me, if I want to do some as well I really dont get what your problem is. I'm paying you to do work for me, whats the problem? If I fit some lights to a wall and ask you to connect to the switch and CU then thats what you do, again I'm paying for your time.

Hi Johnn2713, I don't know what you find hard in understanding this if electrical.work is not your field you should not be messing about with it, the statement 'its only 2 wires' doesnt cut it with me, I've been a spark for a very long time and every day is as school day, it's the consequences of the 2 wires these people don't understand, of course my cert will state my work only and will note what was not fitted by me.Thanks for your input and best.of luck.

 

[johnb2713]

Hi Johnn2713, I don't know what you find hard in understanding this if electrical.work is not your field

If you say so, time served electrician in the steelwork 1975 but obviously you know better.

you should not be messing about with it, the statement 'its only 2 wires' doesnt cut it with me, I've been a spark for a very long time and every day is as school day, it's the consequences of the 2 wires these people don't understand, of course my cert will state my work only and will note what was not fitted by me.

Thats good to know and would figure highly in awarding of contracts by me!

Thanks for your input and best.of luck.

And good luck to you too with your regimented work ethic! My aim in life is to try and help others, pass on knowledge etc. If someone wanted to add lights to a build I would explain the problems from my perspective and then give them guidance of how it needs to be done rather than the 'doesnt cut it with me' that would be a deal breaker for me.

 

[binky]

The reality is the customer often runs the cables for us which is really helpful.

Data cable doesn't cause fires

 

[UNG]

Data cable doesn't cause fires

But if something bytes it the bits fall out

 

[apprentice87]

Ok, way i see it..

1, If a customer buggers up their own computer on their own site and you have to go and fix it, that it one thing. The customer turning up to your shop in the middle of the night, letting themselves in, and buggering about, is an ENTIRELY different thing.

2, Why should you have to spend your time the next day checking what they have done?? If you tried to increase the bill for this, they simply would not pay.. Apart from this, "Testing" does not just mean buggering about with a meter at the end of a job. This is obviously a large part of an EICR, [in addition to visual inspection] but you are not doing an EICR, you are installing a new installation and providing an EIC at the end of it, so inspection is a CONTINOUS "dynamic" process throughout the entire install, with the tests at the end just a precaution and to establish a benchmark if you like for the guidance of others that will do EICR's at a later date. [Why are my figures different to those the installer provided??]
This is the reason why you are not allowed to sign off others work, and only an idiot would do so.
What if the customer having a go themselves, nicks a cable say, which then some time later, livens up metal studding or whatever and kills someone. The coroner will not care a crap that you state "the customer did that bit" It is YOUR name on the cert and you have therefore, confirmed that YOU installed it.

3, Go to your local tyre fitters and try to take the wheels off yourself. They simply would not allow it. I took my vehicle to a garage where i used to work once to have the wheels balanced [having already fitted the tyres myself] Now, my wheels have centres to them, so you have to take the wheels off, and then undo a load of screws to get the centres out. To save them a lot of buggering about, i was going to jack it up and get the wheels ready for them. They would not let me, because i would not be insured to do this work on their premises using their jack.

4, I work for the NHS. If we have a new build or demolition work done, the contractor takes "ownership" of the area, and even us as NHS facilities staff are not allowed in there. It is "their" site, with THEIR staff, and THEIR insurance. You can turn up with your NHS badge all you like, they will simply not let you in. Might be different if you ARRANGE a site visit with the contractor, but no way will you just be turning up and fiddling about..

john..

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Please do not make this thread TOO personal