Commercial RCD protection for sockets

[binky]

I have tested a small shop, which has  right mixed bag of electrics - it's quite old and even has MICC cable feeding a sub-main, lights and some sockets. Now, needless to say nothibg has been updated for quite a while, and there is currently no RCD provision for any sockets (there's only about 6 in total). Last mods to anything were over 5 years ago when a new board and earth bonding was installed. THe shop is basically a 'pound land' type place, no outdoor  works ever undertaken of any sort, basically sockets are used for tills, hoover and kettle.  

Now, I know current regs insist on RCDs for socket ccts , but how retrospective is this requirement? As I see it, this system was correct at time of installation, and I would recommend RCD for sockets as an update, but is this actually required? 

 

[ProDave]

I would say whoever did the board change 5 years ago should have fitted rcd's.  It would be hard to argue not to even then.

As you have just tested it, I assume you are happy with the state of the socket circuits, so can you fit an rcbo or 2?  Or is it an obscure board that you can't get them for?

 

[binky]

It did seem odd to have  a new board (Wylex metal clad with plug MCBs) and no RCD protection of any sorts. The socket cct isn't showing good IR test results, which I suspect is down to poor socket cct fiddling, so I was considering fitting RCD sockets instead, kind of fault find and provide RCD protection at the same time. I will certainly recommend RCDing sckts.

 

[Sidney]

Even if there's potential for outdoor use they should have been afforded additional protection, also depending on installation method etc.

Double check the regs as RCD socket BS is not listed so may have to be put down as a departure as the IET forgot to add them, apparently this will be changing in the next amendment.

 

[binky]

RCD sockets have been missed, as discussed in a previous post on here a few weeks ago.  

 

[Sidewinder]

RCD sockets haven’t been missed.

Unfortunately, they have been deliberately omitted.

This is down to their product standard not stating they are suitable for additional protection, and requiring as upstream 30mA RCD to provide this function. 

 

[Murdoch]

RCD sockets haven’t been missed.

Unfortunately, they have been deliberately omitted.

This is down to their product standard not stating they are suitable for additional protection, and requiring as upstream 30mA RCD to provide this function. 

So, these and RCD fused spurs are still available .... do we just ignore the 18th ed?

 

[Phoenix]

This is down to their product standard not stating they are suitable for additional protection, and requiring as upstream 30mA RCD to provide this function.

 Did anyone get to the bottom of why the product standard ?7288? says this, mistake on that side, or some other logic?

 

[Murdoch]

 Did anyone get to the bottom of why the product standard ?7288? says this, mistake on that side, or some other logic?

PFM 

 

[Sidewinder]

The products are still available, however, they cannot be used under BS 7671 to provide additional protection as required by the "general" use of a 30mA RCD.

The query on the product standard still sits with the committee that wrote it.

 

[Murdoch]

The query on the product standard still sits with the committee that wrote it.

In which case it should not have been published in the 18th edition

the regs are becoming more of a farce with each update ...... thankfully the 18th will be my last 

i see more more and more people not adhering to the regs , which brings to question with bother ? 

 

[Sharpend]

So to make sure I’m understanding this?

we can’t use them under bs7671 for additional protection so how can we maintain discrimination between RCD’s to prevent nuisance tripping in compliance with bs7671? 

 

[Sidewinder]

In which case it should not have been published in the 18th edition

the regs are becoming more of a farce with each update ...... thankfully the 18th will be my last 

i see more more and more people not adhering to the regs , which brings to question with bother ? 

It hasn't BS 7288 is NOT listed in BS 7671:2018 Appendix 1.

So to make sure I’m understanding this?

we can’t use them under bs7671 for additional protection so how can we maintain discrimination between RCD’s to prevent nuisance tripping in compliance with bs7671? 

They do not meet any requirements for use under BS 7671 so they are an obsolete product.

The BS 1363 devices only have an application within BS 7671, and those BS 1363 devices that comply with BS 7288 do not meet the requirements of BS 7671 and thus they serve no purpose at this point in time.

 

[Sharpend]

So if they are non compliant why are they not withdrawn? 
how would it stand in a court of law should a fatality result because diy Dave has been advised to use an rcd socket as his board hasn’t got an rcd of its own? 
surely the manufacturer has to bear some responsibility for the products they sell, Sale of goods and services act? 

 

[Sidewinder]

They are not withdrawn because they do not "have" to be fitted, and, they can still be used with upstream RCD's.

It is down to the person deigning and constructing the installation to ensure compliance not the manufacturer of components.

If only it was easy to stop non compliant products being sold, then half of the goods on Amazon, more on eBay, and about half of the light fittings for sale in retailers would need to be removed from the market place.

And hopefully they would be prosecuted in accordance with safety legislation and fined in accordance with that, so based on their global turnover

Alas, nothing like that will happen because no Government has the balls to police this aspect of public safety.

They are all scared of the global organisations.

 

[Murdoch]

It hasn't BS 7288 is NOT listed in BS 7671:2018 Appendix 1.

Why not? 

There are a number of perfectly good reasons to add RCD fused spurs and RCD sockets rather than entire circuits ..................

As I stated before this is purely about PFM

No wonder the UK is in such a mess 

 

[Sidewinder]

Why not? 

There are a number of perfectly good reasons to add RCD fused spurs and RCD sockets rather than entire circuits ..................

As I stated before this is purely about PFM

No wonder the UK is in such a mess 

It's not listed in BS 7671 for the reason I gave above, there may be valid uses, but, if a device to BS 7288 does not provide additional protection then it offers no benefit over and above a normal socket outlet which is MUCH cheaper.

Plus they require an upstream RCD to provide the additional protection, thus there is no selectivity.

Therefore they are a device without a valid use under BS 7671, this is why they have been omitted form the listing of RCD types, and uses, and why the standard has been omitted from Appendix 1.

This is down to the product standard which specifically requires they are installed with an upstream RCD to provide the additional protection required by BS 7671, and that the devices themselves do not provide this.

This is going to be down to the manufacturers to sort out with BSI as the product standard that covers them has effectively rendered the products covered by the standard irrelevant.

I know that at least one manufacturer is in discussions with the BSI committee regarding this.

 

[Murdoch]

Another forum has suggested that the omission was an error and these will reappear in AMD 1 ......................................

 

[Sidney]

I questioned the NICEIC technical helpline on the use of these type of RCD at the beginning of the summer and their advice was to use them with no departure. They wouldn't put it in writing though... 

 

[Sharpend]

That’s typical of the niccy make the rules to suit but admit nothing.