Dangerous Workmanship - Help!

[Andy™]

single phase 100a and 2x 10.8kw heaters will not end well. your almost at your max 100a load just on the 2 heaters. switch on a kettle and your over 100a. switch on a few more things and chances are you will be in the dark until DNO come and replace the fuse... which they wont be happy about if it happens often

have you got the last page of the EIC, schedule of tests?

 

[Doc Hudson]

Does the certificate actually have the trading name of the electrician and his membership number of Elecsa written on it anywhere?  Have you verified he is actually a member? Are there any logos anywhere on any pages implying membership?  From those first two pages it looks more like a generic un-logoed form. Could be that the he is not actually registered with anybody.  

Doc H.

 

[Kurt]

Its an Amtech form, same one as i use. 

 

[kerching]

Why is she on maternity leave? Kerch have you..........

To the best of my knowledge she is tied up at the moment, and could be for a while

 

[kerching]

What size circuit breaker was installed for each heater circuit?

unless things have changed an increase in load of  10kW or more requires approval from the DNO

 

[Jono Pashley]

Any chance we can see the other pages of the certificate those are the ones that really matter. You really need to get the issue addressed environmental health will take a dim view of your lack of running hot water.

 

[Doc Hudson]

. You really need to get the issue addressed environmental health will take a dim view of your lack of running hot water.

That's a reason why I can't understand why the issue wasn't address before the summer.  Business or Charity, if its a tea room open to the public and you are serving warm refreshments, you should still meet the basic environmental hygiene requirements such as running hot & cold water, and other related washing and cleaning facilities.  Unless its not actually open and running yet.

You said earlier that you own the tea room, but you call it charitable. Is it actually a registered charity, or just some voluntary run not for profit tea room.  Assuming it has got proper charitable status that is all above board and legal, then there may be other  contractors willing to help out as part of their own business or personal charitable work. But if its just you own personal goodwill project, then help may not be quite so forthcoming.

Doc H. 

 

[ProDave]

A few points

You contacted the builder on 22nd December and they didn't reply until 4th January. They were away n Christmas holiday. No surprise there and that delay was not unreasonable at that time f year.

We REALY need the "schedule of test results" which is usually the last page of the EIC sometime there are 2 or more pages of test results.

Can you take a picture of the cable feeding the water heaters?

 

[Doc Hudson]

 I rang the builder on 22nd December 2017 when the switch to the over-door heater was apparently melting and I was getting suspicious about the cause of the heaters apparently blowing up. I photographed everything and took it to a national electrical wholesaler for their opinion – they told me to ring the builder urgently, so I did. No one rang me back the next day (like he said he would). The builder eventually returned my call on 4th January 2018, 13 days later. On 8th January when still nothing had happened I arranged for an independent inspection of the obvious faults the next day. At this point the hidden horrors were discovered. No alterations or remedial work was carried out. While I was planning my next move the original electrician turned up unannounced 20 days after my complaint was made.

It seems unfair to me that I should allow someone I have little trust in to have another stab at getting things right. We still have no heat in the tea room and no hot water at all.

After reading Pro Dave's comments I have just re-read your quoted dates.  You rang on Friday 22nd December, then to get a reply on Thursday 4th January is perfectly acceptable close down period for a business over Christmas and New year.  I cannot see how you can equate this to a "13 working days" delay. or are you paying for and expecting out of hours response and service over bank-holidays, weekends and standard festive periods. So then on Monday 8th you arrange a second opinion. In reality you had only given a couple of working days for him to arrange a re-visit. And the original guy did return within the first full working week of the New year.      

Whist it looks as though you are within your rights to complain about the quality of the work. (although we still need to see the rest of the electrical certificate, as the parts we have seen are some of the least important relating to this issue) I don't think you have many grounds to complain about the timescale of the response especially as you don't appear to be deducting the normal Christmas holidays for you day count. I know of many small firms who cannot simply drop everything and move appointments around with less than a couple of weeks notice.

I would still be very interested to know if this electricians membership has been verified with Elecsa?

Although it may seem unfair to have to give another chance to someone who has messed things up. Unfortunately if you are looking to get you money back for any remedial work I think you may find that by skipping a normal step in the process  you can leave the person you are claiming against a doorway to get out.  However another point for consideration,  was you contract with the builder or direct with the electrician? If it is with the builder then I think you would have to pursue your complaint with him, not the electrician.  

Doc H.

 

[Paul the Tearoom]

Apologies for the delay, here is a link to the rest of the certification and photos of one of the water heaters. Some photos are upside down, but the installation was the right way up!

https://app.box.com/s/ytg8osy04jh7qwt7578qrtvoblo8wbgd

 

[ProDave]

Thanks for those pictures

Irrespective of rating plates or instructions, it is pretty clear from the size of the terminals and the size if the internal wiring that those are high power heaters, as already stated a "shower in a different box"  That looks to be 1.5mm flex which is not up to the job and has clearly got very hot and bothered.

More worrying, is there is no mention of specific circuits for the heaters. One can only guess but my guess is they are all wired to one of the ring finals.  A fixed heater of that power should have it's own dedicated circuit.

You may not like the remedy, but to put this right, the 3 water heaters need rewiring each with their own 10mm cable back to the consumer unit.  I don't know how much disruption to the building that will entail.

I suspect the installer assumed a 2KW storage water heater and thought he would wing it when he saw what you actually have rather than tear the building apart.  But this is where it gets difficult to pin the blame. What did the builder tell the electrician about the type of water heaters that were going to be fitted?  *

The door heater does appear to be on the correct rated circuit with the correct cable. So that switch failure was either a faulty switch or a terminal not tightened properly.  I don't see a picture of that.

* One thing you learn as an electrician is you have to question the specification you are given. One memorable job, the spec said a "boiler" was going into a cupboard so I wired for a gas boiler.  When the "boiler" turned up it was a direct dual element economy 7 hot water tank.  I still had to correct the wiring even though it was not my fault, but it cost the builder more for the rework.

 

[Doc Hudson]

Those pictures too me suggest that whoever connected that up is incompetent and dangerous to be left working on any electrical circuit. It does indeed look like he has wired them as 13A spurs off a 32A ring circuit.

Have you confirmed if this electrician is a member of one of the trades biddies or not yet? There are various on-line search facilities; If they are a registered member of anywhere, then they need a formal complaint raised with their trade organisation along with those photos of the melted flex and a brief description.  

http://www.electricalcompetentperson.co.uk/

http://www.niceic.com/find-a-contractor/find-contractors

http://www.elecsa.co.uk/Find-a-Contractor.aspx

But they may not be registered anywhere at all, From what I can see on the rest of the certificate pages there is no mention of any trade body. There are a lot of what we sometimes call '5 week wonder' short course 'electricians' who have passed a couple of multi choice tests on what the wiring regulations say and lack any basic understanding of proper design calculations for loads, cables sizes and protective devices.  They tend to learn just by repeating a basic set of instructions with little or no knowledge of what they are doing.  I am speculating here but is possible that this 'cowboy' just thought oh its one of these sort of water heaters, we wire these as spurs off the ring!  https://www.screwfix.com/p/ariston-undersink-water-heater-3kw-15ltr/2371g

Assuming all the rest of the wiring is physically intact, then The other solution is to get three off the above type of units and swap them all over.  It could be the cheapest solution.

Doc H.

 

[ruston]

If this is it a quick Google shows the ratings.

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Manufacturers/Redring/Instantaneous_Water_Heaters/index.html

If it is it .it is a disgrace really.

 

[Paul the Tearoom]

Doc, just to clarify, it was 13 days later. I made no claim about working days. Just as here we are over 5 weeks later I make no claim about the number of individual working days involved and still I have unsafe wiring in my tea-room. My contract is with the builder who did his part of the work and he then engaged an electrician to do the electrical work. 5 weeks is a ridiculous time to leave a client with this disgraceful work. I have now sent the builder a 1st class signed for letter. If anyone is interested I will post it here. Either way, it is a complete disgrace.

I will update this thread as the saga proceeds.

 

[Andy™]

when the original spark did turn up, what did he do or say he was going to do to fix it?

 

[Jono Pashley]

Were the ratings of the heaters in the specification for the job? Plenty of times i've seen one thing specified and another fitted(Stating a single phase dishwasher and then a three phase one turns up), however we would raise this issue not just connect up and hope for the best. Anyway i fitted one of the Redring heaters earlier this year although the 9.5kW version and that had a ratings label on it so there is no way the electrician "didn't know". 

 

[Doc Hudson]

Doc, just to clarify, it was 13 days later. I made no claim about working days. Just as here we are over 5 weeks later I make no claim about the number of individual working days involved and still I have unsafe wiring in my tea-room. My contract is with the builder who did his part of the work and he then engaged an electrician to do the electrical work. 5 weeks is a ridiculous time to leave a client with this disgraceful work. I have now sent the builder a 1st class signed for letter. If anyone is interested I will post it here. Either way, it is a complete disgrace.

I will update this thread as the saga proceeds.

You are actually the one who brought up days and however you look at things working days are the only sort of days you can reasonable expect to get any response from any trades person. As you chose to leave it months from the initial fault appearing. you have no grounds to complain about any response times. It is just as ridiculous to wait months without raising the issue with the builder.  

But now back to the facts, if your contract is with the builder then I don't think you have many grounds for any claim against the electrician. But it is the builder who you would have to pursue and give the builder a chance to rectify his problems.  How much detailed specification was in the original contact of works? As you said you supplied the heaters. What was the builder told to install?  I am trying to get my head around how a situation like this could occur. (e.g. an electrician supplying and fitting any high power device should do all the correct design calculations. and wouldn't go just adding items like this to a ring circuit.) Were the water heaters available at the start of the job or supplied later? And who actually did the final connections Including the water pipes?

To elaborate on Jono's point

Just considering an illustration. If a client asks a builder to do alterations including fitting 3 under counter instantaneous water heaters, with no specification of power ratings, Just an agreement that the heaters would be supplied for the builder to connect. If no heaters are there at the start of the work I would bet the majority of electricians would assume they are the max 3kw fixed appliances that can be wired into a fused spur off a ring. If neither the builder nor the electrician have the noggin to check the power rating required then the builders electrician may just come in amend his circuits, leave a fused spur for someone later to connect onto. Do his tests issue his certificate, which would have no mention of any dedicated circuits for high power devices, as to his knowledge there are none. Then if later on the heaters are now available and either the builder himself or his plumber may come along plumb the heaters in, they may think oh these are just standard 3kw max heaters, I can put a bit of flex onto the spur that the electrician left without having to get him to pop back.

Basically electrician wires something to one specification. Then the items supplied are to another specification. then someone with mainly plumbing skills does the final fix connects pipes and bangs a bit of flex on it as that is how 90% of the time these heaters are wired.  You need to proved exactly who was asked to do what and who did the final connection of the flex. As from looking at the certificate on the whole it looks reasonably well completed, (I have seen several that are inaccurate or just made up numbers), and I cannot see how anyone able to complete a certificate with than much detail would fail to spot that fact the 9KW+ heaters have been added to a ring circuit. 

Doc H.     

 

[kerching]

If it was me.......and it wouldn't be.....I would have put on the cerificate

"provision left for X number Y kW water heaters terminated in Z devices. Final connection by others" or something very similar. Otherwise I would be leaving myself as open as an open thing

 

[Murdoch]

This is all a bit odd.

OP why have you got "domestic" and "short course" in your profile?

I would recommend an EICR by a competent, local spark and prepare yourselves for some expense.

 

[Paul the Tearoom]

When setting up an account you have no choice other than select certain options. Click on "Create" at the top of this page and you'll see. None of them actually apply to me.