debate on DI & AC

[switch10]

ok shoot me down for this post but i have to say what i feel and everyone is entitled to there own opinion.

theres been several posts on the forum ive read since i joined which is about the domestic installer schemes and also the approved contrctor scheme.

Now what i really want to know is why everyone who isnt an AC seems to get slated/put down for it? it seems to be if your not AC then your wrong??

people talk about the DI as if they dont know what there doing? however to be registered as a DI you still under go an assessment and be assessed every year to check your work complies, exactly the same as an AC, although the AC takes a few hours longer.

everyone has to start somewhere , and im sure for people who only currently do domestic properties that the DI route is the best for them. This does not mean they simply know any less than the rest of you. am i correct?

it just *s me off when i see forum members putting DI such as myself down beacuse were only DI and not AC, so what, is it effecting you? NO.

were all here for the same reason, to do a job we all like and we all have reasons for only being DI and not AC, if the AC ROUTE was right im sure thats what route would be taken.

i know the part p schemes are some what a rip of scam, and thats by all schemes, NIC, elecsa,napit etc , however they wont just pass anyone as they all have to much to risk by just taking on any tom dick and harry.

just because you have AC and I only have DI, does that make you a better person and one that can judge me???? NO it doesnt so why doesnt everyone stop giving the DI people * for getting involved in the trade , making out AC is so much better all the time.

anyway rant over, had my opinion, can delete it or say what you want, just remember AC doesnt give you the right to judge people.

 

[Brian 157]

I think the real problem is that it is possible to get domestic installer approval without actually being a qualified electrician. When Part P was introduced the idea was it would get rid of the cowboys, in reality the scam providers have effectively licenced cowboys who can sign a cheque and present a half-decent kitchen installation for assessment.

When the Part P & DI schemes were introduced the first person I saw proudly advertising his new status was a bloke I knew to be unqualified who's work in a village hall I had ripped out & replaced (I couldn't issue the satisfactory PIR required for the Public Entertainment Licence, he'd got the job 6 months earlier because he was cheaper than the full scope NICEIC approved ECA member company I was working for).

Many sparks who've served a full apprenticeship and gone the 2360/2330, AM2, NVQ, 2391 etc. route are hacked off at being under-cut on jobs by DIs who did a two week course in housebashing & know how to do it but not why they do it like that.

I fully appreciate that this unjustly tars some competant and qualified electricians with the "cowboy" brush & agree that it is wrong, as you say yourself you have to start somewhere and for many guys the DI approval is a stepping-stone to AC status.

 

[m4tty]

If you joined elecsa mate all they have is approved contractor status as they only do domestic I believe. Ac status means they get assessed on commercial too so they are better than us di's lol.

 

[switch10]

If you joined elecsa mate all they have is approved contractor status as they only do domestic I believe. Ac status means they get assessed on commercial too so they are better than us di's lol.

i joined NIC , as i plan in the future, to step up to AC , just dont get much in the way of commercial work around this area at the moment.

so because i dont do commercial im not as good as them

---------- AUTO MERGE Post added at 10:07 ---------- Previous post was at 10:04 ----------

I think the real problem is that it is possible to get domestic installer approval without actually being a qualified electrician. When Part P was introduced the idea was it would get rid of the cowboys, in reality the scam providers have effectively licenced cowboys who can sign a cheque and present a half-decent kitchen installation for assessment.When the Part P & DI schemes were introduced the first person I saw proudly advertising his new status was a bloke I knew to be unqualified who's work in a village hall I had ripped out & replaced (I couldn't issue the satisfactory PIR required for the Public Entertainment Licence, he'd got the job 6 months earlier because he was cheaper than the full scope NICEIC approved ECA member company I was working for).

Many sparks who've served a full apprenticeship and gone the 2360/2330, AM2, NVQ, 2391 etc. route are hacked off at being under-cut on jobs by DIs who did a two week course in housebashing & know how to do it but not why they do it like that.

I fully appreciate that this unjustly tars some competant and qualified electricians with the "cowboy" brush & agree that it is wrong, as you say yourself you have to start somewhere and for many guys the DI approval is a stepping-stone to AC status.

appreciate the response, and the comments, and i understand what your saying that some people have gone the whole hog apprenticeship route etc and then DI'S undercut on jobs because they have done a couple of week course.

however not all DI registered people have only done a couple of week course. some have been training for years , it is just simply the DI route that suits them better rather than the AC. i mean i could of gone AC but i dont get any commercial work except fire alarm systems, which im registered with bafe for. so only domestic meant i could only register as a DI , as no commerical work to show.

 

[m4tty]

Have you done the 2330 level 2 and 3 etc mate or have you done a domestic installer course?

I can see it from both sides. If you had done a 4 year apprentaship and see people doing a 2 week course and can legally do the same scope of work. It would p you off wouldn't it. I don't believe that you can learn the same in a short course as what you would doing it the proper way. Although I also see it from the other side. There are no apprentaships and no other way in but to do a fast track course. I've done fasttrack although took me over 2 years and was reading books 12 hours a day 7 days a week for 2 years still I don't believe I possess the knowledge that an apprentaship would have taught. I had no options as got 3 kids and a ***** ex to pay off

 

[Doc Hudson]

You raise an interesting point Switch10, which also has implications on the tone and content of the forum posts. I am not sure the issue is just a DI - AC thing more an expected level of experience problem.

From some posts I have read, some older experienced members are getting concerned about "qualified persons" asking the sort of basic questions a DIY person would ask, when standard training courses and the use of books you reasonably expect a qualified person to have access to normally give these basic answers.

The forum will always encourage anyone to ask questions, but there can be a level of concern when people are working as a trade in customers premises, (maybe on their own), but they are unable to make basic evaluation of procedures, testing, fault finding, design etc.

A DIY person or someone still at college would be expected to ask basic questions as they have not yet gained the expected level of experience or knowledge. But when someone is working alone on a live electrical installation all of the basics should be covered and the level of questioning raised to a standard above the DIY questions.

This I believe is the underlying issue not what scheme one member has joined or not. We do actually have numerous members who mostly do domestic work, or who do commercial & domestic but choose only to join a DI level scheme for the part-P aspect of their work, but from the recognition of thanks and reputation prove themselves to be as competent as any other member.

I can fully understand and sympathies with an experience electrician being concerned about the level of knowledge of newly qualified persons. But also with the difficulties of learning a trade and trying to establish yourself to earn a living. It is a tricky balance, which the forum is in the middle of.

There has been an increasing number of these DIY questions from qualified members over recent months. I can only ask ALL members to try and understand and see both sides of the problem, and keep all posts to a reasonable tone and maintain the standard that Admin aimed for when setting the forum up.

Doc H.

 

[a1]

Doc, You have received a scoob and Thanks for that - I agree with all of what you typed out.

I was about to say that Electricians are qualifying and; and because there are no companies out there that are in a positiion to take them on to gain the necessary experience (and we can see a heck of a lot of threads on here backing this up), they are forced to start up on their own. (for one reason or another - Mortgage, family etc).

But, there are questions being asked on here from qualified sparks, who "with respect" are basic things and should already know the answer to.

Yes, sometimes people may forget the most basic - especially under pressure. Ie: exams or assessments.

Speaking of which - I watched the "Young Plumber of the Year 2010" last night. Did anyone else see it?

Shocked standard. Basic questions were not known, tasks uncompleted, snobs and untidy soldering, fault finding was bad. And these were allegedly the four best finalists, narrowed down from hundreds of entries. And the programme claimed they had between 4 and 6 years of experience.

 

[anelay]

hi all

yeah i tend to agree with admin. i am in a similar situation. completed 2330 2 and 3 couple of years ago. since then i have worked in different electrical areas but now in a position where i am going self employed. i found that even though it took me a couple of years to do my qualifications, i felt that the tutors tended to teach you what was necessary to pass the exam, not some of the basics required. i remember doing very little on completing paperwork, codes, notifiable etc. i am in process of joining di scheme as i actually prefer domestic work. i have only been on this site a few weeks and some of the comments made have almost been hostile towards some. i agree that some are basic questions but surely if people dont know, wouldn't we rather they asked and got given good advice instead of getting slated and possibly never posting again, then try to work out for themselves what to do, get it wrong and bring down the rep of all electricians. i feel that some older sparks are hindering development as apposed to nurturing it.

mark

who will guard the guards???

 

[a1]

I must say (and I was lucky enough to have good Tutors), that when I did my 2330, I completed a load of EICs and MEWCs.

 

[Apache]

Speaking of which - I watched the "Young Plumber of the Year 2010" last night. Did anyone else see it?

Yes it was shocking. Correct me if I'm wrong but the 'young plumber of the year' wanted to but a 25mm trap on a bath?!

God help us all. Luckily I can do plumbing. headbang

 

[Zeespark]

Here is My 5 pennies worth, the whole concept of the DI system was one idea that mothballed into another. What am I on about I hear you say?

In My opinion the 5 week courses should have been set up for the electricians that have been in the trade for 20/30 years but have no formal paperwork to back up their experience. From the way that the 5 week courses have been designed, the older electricians with experience would have walked through the exam.

Instead, the private training providers, Tradeskills4U etc, looked at the situation and thought, this is a quick way to train students that have no previous experience of the industry. We will also tell them that they can make

 

[septiclecky]

The reason why people are having a dig at some people with NICEIC DI next to their name is basically because with they ask the most simplest question which if you had served your time you would not have to ask and I believe that some people are getting a bit Peed off with it.

 

[kme]

Okay:

To pick up on a couple of points raised by switch10, that haven`t been addressed yet....

The assessments for DI and AC have very little in common; from start to finish. They should have, but unfortunately, with

 

[Brian 157]

That's an interesting take on things Andy (Zeespark) did you mean mothball or snowball? The private training providers of DI courses are more interested in making money than providing a decent standard of training.

Personally I think 2330 has pros & cons against 2360. The theory content is broadly similar, I don't think the level 2 practical is on a par with the old AM1 but at least there is a decent amount of I&T and fault finding in the level 3.

Both 2360 & 2330 were designed for apprentices or trainees working in the field, the gaps in college knowledge were assumed to be being filled in on site. The 3 phase in both 2360 & 2330 is mainly theory in principles/science, the only practical I remember was in the 2360 competances, there's no practical 3 phase in 2330. The AM2 installation is of course 3 phase, but not everybody takes it. You're expected to do some 3 phase in the 2356 NVQ.

When the 2330 & 2356 are replaced by the 2357 it will be much harder for people not employed in the trade to train, which will force more people down the "five week wonder" route & the overall standard of our industry will drop.

 

[Zeespark]

Mothball/snowball, Brian you know your words better than I (no offence intended) I wasnt actually employed on the tools when I started My 2360, but it gave Me a huge advantage in securing future employment.

I tend to think that the industry will get a kick up the backside and soon, when things start to go wrong within the industry.

AndyGuinness

 

[Brian 157]

Mothball/snowball, Brian you know your words better than I (no offence intended) I wasnt actually employed on the tools when I started My 2360, but it gave Me a huge advantage in securing future employment. I tend to think that the industry will get a kick up the backside and soon, when things start to go wrong within the industry.

AndyGuinness

I wasn't either Andy, but a year at college helped me get on the tools & I had a very good site education. I'm very disappointed that this route will be closed to would-be future sparks.

 

[Zeespark]

So am I Brian, I had 2 of the best electricians teach Me the 2360 as lecturers too. If there was something we didnt understand on the whiteboard, they would finish the lecture a few minutes early and actually show us in situ what the whiteboard is trying to say to us.

AndyGuinness

 

[switch10]

hey some interesting replies, however some also prove my point people judge new members to early. it appears most people who mention DI are simply assumed to of gone the 5 day wonder course with no experience, however this is not allways the case.

i have read posts on the forum from very experienced mebers to newbies who have stated they are just starting out and ask a question, what would you do in such a situation or maybe they have done some testing and are getting conflicting results, and they get shot down in flames for asking. surely they are better asking rather than just leaving work which is not right?

im all for people knowing what there doing before undertaking any type of electrical work, as they could endanger peoples lives etc, but everyone deserves a fair crack of the whip so to speak.

I myself started training as an electrician some time ago, completing c & g 2330 level 2, and various other courses, however i was unfortunate the sparky who employed me went bust and there went my apprenticeship after 2 years with him. however after many years doing fire alarms im slowly getting back into electrical things, and yes a part p domestic installer course is one thing, aswell as 17th edition, pat testing, and much more. but even though im doing that and trying to sort out 2330 level 3, because im on a NIC DI im looked down on. .. im 30 years old and cant get an apprenticeship to do level 3 as im to old apparently so the only way for people to get into these is these short courses.

the point im trying to make is, just because someone asks questions, dont assume they dont have qualifications as some do.

 

[anelay]

+1

couldn't agree more switch. after all isn't that sort of what forums are for.

cheers

mark

who will guard the guards???

 

[tom1]

Speaking of which - I watched the "Young Plumber of the Year 2010" last night. Did anyone else see it?

Shocked standard. Basic questions were not known, tasks uncompleted, snobs and untidy soldering, fault finding was bad. And these were allegedly the four best finalists, narrowed down from hundreds of entries. And the programme claimed they had between 4 and 6 years of experience.

Yes it was shocking. Correct me if I'm wrong but the 'young plumber of the year' wanted to but a 25mm trap on a bath?!God help us all. Luckily I can do plumbing. headbang

i watched it mate i thought they would be a lot better as they had been in the trade for so many years. my plumbing is not the neatest but then i am not on plumber of the year award. does anyone solder each and every joint as they go?