DIY PME

[gordy71]

Whilst wiring a heating system on behalf of British Gas, checking the earthing system i noticed that a 10mm earth had been connected to the neutral henley block. The earthing clearly was TT, and fed from overhead lines. I asked the customer about it as i thought it was probably bodged in by builders a few years back , ( as the top of the block had been smashed then taped over with insulation tape!) but to my surprise she said that a british gas white goods man had done it less than a month ago! I explained that this was potentially dangerous if PME was not available but she didnt seem too concerned and said that there was no earth at all before. My guess is that the surveyor for the boiler install had plugged in his socket and see and got above 1 ohm, which means there is no earth... (these so called testers only give readings of below 1, below 100 and 200 ohms). I tested ze and got 78 ohms. 30Ma rcd in place. And 6mm earth visable.

What gives british gas the right to do such a thing? No paperwork was left or anything and i doubt an inquiry was made as to whether PME was available. How does this affect the work i was carrying out? I noted on the cert that this was carried out prior to me being there and got the customer to sign it. I also told my QS but he didnt seem botherted either!

headbang

 

[Andy™]

contact DNO

 

[Manator]

Any type of interference to the DNO side of the supply is illegal, I personally would report it, then give the supply and the DNO the opportunity to prosecute, it should be very easy to investigate. If British gas is the supplier I would be even more tempted to inform them. The broken HED needs to be reported anyway, tape will not prevent any person from gaining access to a live part. I can understand why some people turn a blind eye, but the more electricians stand up for themselves and report bad practice the more we will be taken seriously.

 

[Doc Hudson]

As Andy said, need to phone DNO, let them make the decision, or just remove it and make it back to TT as Steptoe probably would.

Doc H.

 

[Sidewinder]

Doc,

In this case I don't think that the OP should "tamper" with the supply at all.

IMHO they must report this to the DNO/Metering Operator, however I feel they must take pictures etc. of the situation of the install and document the situation with a signature from the householder on that document.

 

[gordy71]

Ok have to contact them tommorrow anyway. It just wound me up that someone had been specifically given this job who obviously had very little knowledge of what they were doing. And they pride themselves on their top notch training... There is no need for pme as everything else is upto scratch for tt.

 

[Evans Electric]

This bit interests me ( QS didn't seem bothered either...) A few years back ( when I tended to give a $hit ) I phoned the ECA Tech Line , someone in London . It was about us attaching 10mm bonding to the water pipes , then the plumbers cutting the pipe and fitting a plastic tee (or whatever) immediatly above .

His repy was " Why are you bothered ?" " Whats it to you ? As long as you have installed the bonding its nothing to do with you "

So you start to think " Why do I bother....leave it to the suits "

But full marks to Gordy for actually caring about what he does. :Salute

 

[steptoe]

yep, your QS is an absolute tw@t

has he even been bothered to have a look at the job?

have you contacted BG?

deffo take some pix and inform as many people as possible,

not ideal in your situation, your QS should be doing all this for you, that is his job, so take pix anyway to cover your back should it all go pear shaped,

and inform your QS in writing, when I have a major issue(I am a QS) with the firm I e.mail one of the admins and get her to forward my e.mail, then it is on the server of at least 3 accounts.

Gordy, if you want to PM me I can tell you exactly what your QS should do in this sort of instance. (well what I would do anyway).

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 22:03 ---------- Previous post was made at 22:01 ----------

Ok have to contact them tommorrow anyway. It just wound me up that someone had been specifically given this job who obviously had very little knowledge of what they were doing. And they pride themselves on their top notch training... There is no need for pme as everything else is upto scratch for tt.

why?

you just said you have a QS,

are you a supervisor/manager or something?

does your firm employ that many people?

 

[Doc Hudson]

Doc,In this case I don't think that the OP should "tamper" with the supply at all.

IMHO they must report this to the DNO/Metering Operator, however I feel they must take pictures etc. of the situation of the install and document the situation with a signature from the householder on that document.

You may well be right Sidewinder. However my thoughts were that as the OP suggests it was originally a satisfactory TT installation. The DNO may just say, we have never provided an earth at this installation. As such without indisputable evidence of who actually changed it, they may just say nothing we can do, its the homeowners responsibility to ensure an adequate earth. (funnily enough the recent Connections magazine has an article on this responsibility topic). It will be interesting to see how this situation progresses. But I do suspect it may be just an unproven sequence of events with everyone denying responsibility!

Doc H.

 

[steptoe]

well, I think it could be proven by mr BG producing his little piece of paper with his earth readings on,

or his work sheet for work carried out at the bodge house.

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 22:17 ---------- Previous post was made at 22:16 ----------

BTW,

nothing to do with DNO really,

OP stated it was an earth connected to a henley block, there shouldnt be any of these on DNO side anyhow.

 

[Andy™]

. It was about us attaching 10mm bonding to the water pipes , then the plumbers cutting the pipe and fitting a plastic tee (or whatever) immediatly above . His repy was " Why are you bothered ?" " Whats it to you ? As long as you have installed the bonding its nothing to do with you "

simple. the bonding is there to earth the extraneous part. i.e the incoming pipe. if you have a plastic feed, then providing the rest of the copper installation is not in contact with ground (i.e and upstairs flat), then its unlikely to be extraneous and wouldnt need an earth to it anyway

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 22:20 ---------- Previous post was made at 22:19 ----------

BTW,

nothing to do with DNO really,

OP stated it was an earth connected to a henley block, there shouldnt be any of these on DNO side anyhow.

straight con into a henley (neutral) and fuse holder (live)? seen it done a few times

 

[steptoe]

so the DNO cable isnt protected?

or is it in 2X singles? being an overhead?

 

[Andy™]

who said anything about DNO cable being unprotected?

 

[fletchflash]

I used to work for BG as a spark for nearly two years, made a good friend there, who like me was fully qualified before joining. Alot of there electricians were trained through there company and they seemed to be getting more and more electricians this way, prefering it to employing experianced sparks. Probably coz there trainees were more robotic. Anyway they would put them on this domestic installer course part p etc minimal required for a few months. Few of us there would call them 'plastic sparks' or 'sparks out of a box'. They would let them loose pretty much straight away, on there own. They'd be doing all sorts from domestic fault finding covered under BG insurance thing or paid for upgrades such as CU changes or PIR's. It was crazy! Can only imagine its worse now! When busy they used to pile the work on, sometimes I'd do 14 jobs a day, all over south yorkshire, so much driving. Anyway combination of plastic sparks and them rushing to get home on time made for some shocking work!

I remember going to one job where a plastic spark had changed a CU, customer was complaining of sockets being tempramental and slight fishy smell. Opened the board up and the bottom of a 32A mcb supplying a ring had melted, the mcb had not been tightened onto the bus bar at all, never mind not enough. I also remember a few ridicoulous jobs, often sent over from the washing machine guys, who might act as electricians when it was busy. Jobs such as 'earth loop too low' or 'voltage not 230volts'.

Crazy how BG protray themselves to be so highly rated, and how people willing pay twice as much for them! They used to charge

 

[steptoe]

[quote name='Andy

 

[philbas]

If i'm reading this correctly, and I may not be, we have one end of an Earth connected to the neutral on the DNO side of the installation.

Where is the other end of the Earth connected ?

 

[gordy71]

If i'm reading this correctly, and I may not be, we have one end of an Earth connected to the neutral on the DNO side of the installation.Where is the other end of the Earth connected ?

To the c/u earth bar

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 20:15 ---------- Previous post was made at 20:07 ----------

yep, your QS is an absolute tw@thas he even been bothered to have a look at the job?

have you contacted BG?

deffo take some pix and inform as many people as possible,

not ideal in your situation, your QS should be doing all this for you, that is his job, so take pix anyway to cover your back should it all go pear shaped,

and inform your QS in writing, when I have a major issue(I am a QS) with the firm I e.mail one of the admins and get her to forward my e.mail, then it is on the server of at least 3 accounts.

Gordy, if you want to PM me I can tell you exactly what your QS should do in this sort of instance. (well what I would do anyway).

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 22:03 ---------- Previous post was made at 22:01 ----------

why?

you just said you have a QS,

are you a supervisor/manager or something?

does your firm employ that many people?

The QS was on a site inspection with me when i told him about it! If you can call it an inspection. The reason i had to contact them was for one of my own jobs, i sub contract to this company. Rang and rang but no answer from the DNO, I use the number on this site but have NEVER got through after about 10 different occasions. I have got a picture on my phone so will try and upload it.

As for the Henley block, well maybe it wasnt, but the live was in its own fuse carrier and the neutral was in its own block, separate enclosure.

 

[steptoe]

To the c/u earth bar---------- Post Auto-Merged at 20:15 ---------- Previous post was made at 20:07 ----------

The QS was on a site inspection with me when i told him about it! If you can call it an inspection. The reason i had to contact them was for one of my own jobs, i sub contract to this company. Rang and rang but no answer from the DNO, I use the number on this site but have NEVER got through after about 10 different occasions. I have got a picture on my phone so will try and upload it.

As for the Henley block, well maybe it wasnt, but the live was in its own fuse carrier and the neutral was in its own block, separate enclosure.

better picture now gordy,

so you can only do what you are contracted to do,

does the other firms QS sign off your work?

if so then you really dont have much to worry about, apart from the fact that they only chase

 

[gordy71]

No i sign the certs, hence why he doesnt give a toss! Does this mean that i am solely liable for all work? Not much point in doing the inspections if he doesnt pull you up on stuff and sets a bad attitude for the rest of the employees.