DNO Cut-Out location - regulations / guidance?

[Timotei]

Good Morning All.

Customers moved into new (to them) bungalow. I undertook an EICR at the last minute, the installation is a bit of a disaster, but that is not the focus of my post.

The Cut-Out was replaced by National Grid on 23 July 2024 when the previous owner reported that the old one was damaged.

The cut out is in the kitchen, in a kitchen cupboard, attached (via board) to the rear panel of the cupboard, and not to "the fabric of the building" (see attached pics, but might be best to be sitting down when you do...I did say the installation was a disaster!).

Unsurpisingly the new owners are planning to remove the old kitchen and install a new one, and this would include the cabinet to which the CO is fixed....but this would involve having to relocate CO / metering equipment etc.

Surely it cannot be right for the CO to be fixed here?...but I can find nothing which would specifically prohibit it.

I am also less than impressed (bearing in mind I have always found NGs work to be of such a high standard previously) by the excess unclipped / unsupported cable they have left on the incomer, just waiting to be caught on something being removed from the cupboard (I have obviously told the customer to keep out of this cupboard until some of the other issues in there can be resolved).....unless the installer left the excess because they too thought this would need relocating, the excess leaving enough flexibility to affix the CO on the external wall to the right of pic?

I feel that NG should take responsibility for this and relocate at their expense (I know what you are thinking!) as, at the very least, this is surely very poor practice which they should have raised / addressed when replacing the CO so recently.

Do any wiser heads have anything more concrete I could use to support this, e.g. codes / guidelines / regs etc for DNOs?....as mentioned earlier I have not found anything definite in my searches.

Thanks.

Timotei

Edit - to correct spelling.

 

[binky]

Not that unusual in older property. Worst place I've found CO is an upstairs back bedroom. It does look like whoever fitted the kitchen might have moved the equipment, or the kitchen was fitted first, we shall never know the answer to that.

I can't think of anything you could throw at DNO to get it moved for free.

 

[Murdoch]

You want to pay to move it I’m sure the DNO will be happy to take your money

 

[Timotei]

Not that unusual in older property. Worst place I've found CO is an upstairs back bedroom. It does look like whoever fitted the kitchen might have moved the equipment, or the kitchen was fitted first, we shall never know the answer to that.

I can't think of anything you could throw at DNO to get it moved for free.

Yep, seen them in some odd places, including a bedroom too, but always on "the fabric of the building".

I know the chances of getting it moved for free are slightly less than zero....but it irks me to see such (IMO) poor practice and for the customers (both retired) to then be expected to foot a (very) substantial bill to correct it.

As you say, possibly it was moved by kitchen installer many moons ago...but then I would have expected NG to flag this up when replacing the CO back in July....

Oh well, I can but try...

 

[Timotei]

You want to pay to move it I’m sure the DNO will be happy to take your money

You're not wrong! They do tend to make Ebeneezer (pre ghost no. 3 of course!) look like one of the world's greatest philanthropists!

 

[UNG]

but might be best to be sitting down when you do...I did say the installation was a disaster!).

That is in relatively good condition compared to some of the "rats nest" distribution disasters I have come across over the years
While trying to blame the DNO the location of the service head it looks like it has been fastened to a wooden block and the pushed behind the metal switchfuse before being secured to the back board as there is no access to the main earth terminal on the head. Given the limited access to work live I do wonder if the DNO has cut back a PILC supply cable and jointed on a new concentric cable to install the new service head which quite often is an emergency repair because the old head is or has failed

The the likelihood of the DNO moving the servicehead at no cost is not something that will happen you don't know how the use and layout of the property has changed since power was first supplied and at the time this was probably the optimum position to install it, the kitchen looks very 70's / 80's in it's design, the metalclad switchfuse suggests the wiring is 1960's maybe 70's vintage so this is a problem that has been building up for a number of years
If your customer has recently purchased the property then if they have elected not to have any survey's or checks done then they only have themselves to blame

Aside from the minor distribution issue you have found how does the rest of the installation look on the EICR
Looking at the old metalclad switchfuse suggests the installation or parts of it could be quite old and possibly in need of a rewire so it may be prudent to rewire and arrange to relocate the distribution equipment before the new kitchen is fitted and possibly negotiate with / pay the DNO to move the supply, there maybe options to mitigate some of the DNO cost but unless you talk to them it is difficult to just assume anything

 

[binky]

Yep, seen them in some odd places, including a bedroom too, but always on "the fabric of the building".

I know the chances of getting it moved for free are slightly less than zero....but it irks me to see such (IMO) poor practice and for the customers (both retired) to then be expected to foot a (very) substantial bill to correct it.

As you say, possibly it was moved by kitchen installer many moons ago...but then I would have expected NG to flag this up when replacing the CO back in July....

Oh well, I can but try...

around my way, there are usually fixed to a wooden backboard, which is screwed to the 'fabric of the building'. You can see the board in the top photo. The only thing you can really do is contact DNO and ask them to come out and have a look at it. If you provide them a nice external meter box and expose the cable run for them, I doubt they would charge much for doing the work (that's a relative 'much' as large corprorations have large overheads). You could possibly make a case based on accessibility for disabled people, but I doubt that will get very far to be honest. Good luck with it anyway, and do let us know how you get on.

TRue ditty time, if not directly relevent. I looked at ajob to replace a CU in a kitchen. CU was at the back of a corner cupboard that evn my long arms could hardly reach. Kitchen was pretty new, the customer having had it done a few years previous. I said to him he should have moved it to keep it accessible, to which he commented he didn't wnt to spend the money at the time. Turns put the customer was one of the local college electrical lecturers - if anyone should know better....

 

[mort2376]

If that is an external wall that you can fit an external cabinet to then it wouldnt take much to turn that round to sit in the said cabinet.

Im sure if the cabinet was installed and you asked the meter fairys very nicely you would turn your back and it may suddenly have turned itself around and gone into the external cabinet.

If you dont believe in fairys then Ive known the occasional DNO worker to top us their beer fund by occasionally, maybe, dont quote me and Ill deny I posted it, carrying out tasks same as the meter fairys.

If you see any working local its maybe worth asking. I know people who have had new overhead lines fitted and roads closed all out of official work hours !

 

[Andy™]

probably there to start with and has been repaired and put back in same location. if your customer wants it moved then they can pay DNO to do it

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Reminds me of stuff like this from an old job....



Unfortunately its not uncommon to find Cut-Outs and CU inside the back of kitchen cabinets!!
or boxed in, in a strange fashion!

As UNG pointed out judging by the loop of cable, it does look like the whole of that back board, inc meter & cut-out, has been repositioned in the past.. (maybe it was originally higher up the wall above the counter top height?)

IMHO is either pay to get it moved, or design a better kitchen cabinet arrangement..

 

[Timotei]

That is in relatively good condition compared to some of the "rats nest" distribution disasters I have come across over the years
While trying to blame the DNO the location of the service head it looks like it has been fastened to a wooden block and the pushed behind the metal switchfuse before being secured to the back board as there is no access to the main earth terminal on the head. Given the limited access to work live I do wonder if the DNO has cut back a PILC supply cable and jointed on a new concentric cable to install the new service head which quite often is an emergency repair because the old head is or has failed

The the likelihood of the DNO moving the servicehead at no cost is not something that will happen you don't know how the use and layout of the property has changed since power was first supplied and at the time this was probably the optimum position to install it, the kitchen looks very 70's / 80's in it's design, the metalclad switchfuse suggests the wiring is 1960's maybe 70's vintage so this is a problem that has been building up for a number of years
If your customer has recently purchased the property then if they have elected not to have any survey's or checks done then they only have themselves to blame

Aside from the minor distribution issue you have found how does the rest of the installation look on the EICR
Looking at the old metalclad switchfuse suggests the installation or parts of it could be quite old and possibly in need of a rewire so it may be prudent to rewire and arrange to relocate the distribution equipment before the new kitchen is fitted and possibly negotiate with / pay the DNO to move the supply, there maybe options to mitigate some of the DNO cost but unless you talk to them it is difficult to just assume anything

Absolutely right, house in need of a full rewire, so hoping to relocate everything as part of this.

 

[Timotei]

Reminds me of stuff like this from an old job....

View attachment 17161View attachment 17162View attachment 17163

Unfortunately its not uncommon to find Cut-Outs and CU inside the back of kitchen cabinets!!
or boxed in, in a strange fashion!

As UNG pointed out judging by the loop of cable, it does look like the whole of that back board, inc meter & cut-out, has been repositioned in the past.. (maybe it was originally higher up the wall above the counter top height?)

IMHO is either pay to get it moved, or design a better kitchen cabinet arrangement..

Thanks SL - I think in your pics the CO etc is at least fixed to the fabric of the building rather than the cupboard itself (?) - I often find CO etc in cupboards, but for me this is the first time the cupboard interior has been used to mount it on....as Binky said, it could have been moved there by the original kitchen fitter or A.N. Other...so I can't definitely pin the blame on NG...it's really just me trying to keep dosts down for the customers...it may well be that part of the cupboard rear on which the CO is mounted will become an intricate part of the new kitchen (in a slightly better location) going forwards.