Do I need this work certified?

[mpeill]

I have a twin socket in the hallway, as part of the house ring main. I want to add a second twin socket as a spur, wired to and positioned directly next to the existing socket.

I can physically do the work safely myself, but do I need to legally obtain a safety certificate for this work?

 

[Andy™]

7671 would require a minor works certificate for that. you will also need to test r1r2 / r2, IR, Zs, RCD trip times. you would also have to check the existing wiring is suitable for adding another socket, check the earthing is adequate and thats just the start

Or just do what every other DIYer does and wing it

 

[Lurch]

but do I need to legally obtain a safety certificate for this work?

No.

To do it correctly you should do all the required test before and after the works and issue the relevant certificates. Legally you can do whatever you like, you don't even legally need to do it correctly (assuming you are a homeowner/DIYer and this isn't paid work).

 

[Adam W]

No.

To do it correctly you should do all the required test before and after the works and issue the relevant certificates. Legally you can do whatever you like, you don't even legally need to do it correctly (assuming you are a homeowner/DIYer and this isn't paid work).

The EAWR still apply whether you're being paid for the work or not.  I agree they've given it a confusing name since a lot of people think it doesn't apply to them if they're doing DIY, or "basically" doing DIY.

 

[Lurch]

The EAWR still apply whether you're being paid for the work or not.

But legally (which was what I was basing my answer around) they don't really apply to DIY. I'm not entirely convinced they apply to DIY at all, legally or otherwise.

 

[Doc Hudson]

The "A" "W" of the EAWR is the giveaway bit. "Electricity 'At'  'Work' Regulations".  Any person in their own home doing any form of DIY work is not an employee, or an employer, they have no staff, managers, supervisors, payroll dept, etc. They produce no goods or services for sale to other customers, they produce no profits to pay any income or tax liabilities, i.e. it is not a place of work. The home only becomes a place of work if a homeowner employs a trades person to undertake some work for them, other than that EAWR has no relevance if purely DIY jobs are being done.

And as we all know, DIY electrical work is permitted in the UK, and BS7671 is non-statutory guidance. However to ensure any electrical work is safe any person doing any alterations minor, major, temporary or permanent would be wise to follow the guidance of BS761. As if you do get it wrong, electricity can kill a healthy adult is less than half a second. I think this question should be in the DIY section? 

Doc H. 

 

[mpeill]

Thanks for all your answers. I was asking about the legality more from the point of view of implications down the line, primarily house insurance being null and void in the event of a claim. I don't want to have to wait until a claim time to find out !

I may seem to be rather over cautious here, but I'd never find out until the moment, then it's too late !

There is also talk on the web about selling property and requiring an electrical safety certificate at that time ....

 

[phil d]

Thanks for all your answers. I was asking about the legality more from the point of view of implications down the line, primarily house insurance being null and void in the event of a claim. I don't want to have to wait until a claim time to find out !

I may seem to be rather over cautious here, but I'd never find out until the moment, then it's too late !

There is also talk on the web about selling property and requiring an electrical safety certificate at that time ....

With regards to selling a property, they will require a certificate done at the time of sale, no matter how much paperwork you have from beforehand, an electrician could rewire a house today and issue a certificate stating all is in order, then a week later the homeowner does some diy electrical work and makes a mess of it.

I've had this recently, did a load of work on a house, went back a couple of weeks later and some ***** has decided to move a light switch, they extended the wires with terminal block, buried in the wall, they also spurred off a spur, to feed an electric fire, both are non compliances!

I can't understand why anyone would do this after having a spark in, but each to their own.

 

[Evans Electric]

With regards to selling a property, they will require a certificate done at the time of sale, no matter how much paperwork you have from beforehand, an electrician could rewire a house today and issue a certificate stating all is in order, then a week later the homeowner does some diy electrical work and makes a mess of it.

I've had this recently, did a load of work on a house, went back a couple of weeks later and some ***** has decided to move a light switch, they extended the wires with terminal block, buried in the wall, they also spurred off a spur, to feed an electric fire, both are non compliances!

I can't understand why anyone would do this after having a spark in, but each to their own.

Makes you wonder about issuing certs doesn't it ?    We did a vacant rewire last year for my  mate's relative ...they lived there for a year , decided they didn't like the area , put house up for sale.         

It appears that our  EIC  , issued only a year ago , was not acceptable to anyone....two buyers  had EICR ,s  done  , amazingly , it was found to be OK  .  

We fill in that  " This installation should be tested after 10 yrs" .    But I take the point that our work could have been altered or messed with during that year ,  but is there really any point in retaining the original certificate when no one accepts it .  

That customer paid us to rewire  then  test , certify & notify what we'd done....they filed it away   and a year later its of no consequence .

 

[Adam W]

While you can "legally" add a socket yourself without notifying LABC, do you think your insurance company would agree that you can do what you like in your own home if it's not for gain or reward, even that BS7671 is a non-statutory document, or do you think they'd jump all over the idea that you weren't "competent" to do the work?   It's unlikely that you would be prosecuted as a result of DIY work unless a visitor suffered electrocution from it, but an insurance company might not want to pay out over it.

I think you'd need to weigh up the risks against the gains for yourself - in the absence of qualifications only you can gauge your ability - what are the chances of you burning the house down?

 

[Doc Hudson]

I would guess that 99.99% of properties in the UK do not have any regular periodic inspections carried out, and probably 99.99% of insurance companies do not ask for copies of any inspection reports or electrical certificates that you may or may not have, before they agree to take your premiums and insure your home. As such I would be very surprised if they would ever have any knowledge or grounds to suggest any one socket was DIY, or professionally, installed. I have never been asked by any insurance company to validate any work be it; electrical, plumbing, gas, woodwork, landscaping etc. at any time when renewing or amending any home insurance policies. Nor do I recall seeing any clauses in any of the policy schedules stating all electrical work must be carried out in accordance with anything!  I would be very interested if anyone actually has any factual examples of insurance being declined due to DIY work. Or seeing a copy of the policy schedule wording that suggests that DIY electrical work will invalidate the policy? All sorts of DIY work are perfectly legal and valid in a persons own home, so I am not sure a company can bar you from doing anything that is a perfectly legal pastime?  Does anyone have any real life examples of this "invalidating your insurance" issue?

Doc H. 

 

[mpeill]

The Doc Hudson comments above are the hub of my concerns. Knowing how insurance companies try every which way to wriggle out of any claims made.

In times to come, I have some storm damage that breaks a window.... I make a claim.... ah, but you've installed a twin electrical socket, so sorry sir, but your insurance is invalidated !

Am I being ridiculous here?

 

[Adam W]

Advice from insurers is to check your policy:

https://www.lv.com/atheart/features/5-common-diy-disasters-to-avoid

https://www.churchill.com/home-insurance/tips/invalidate-cover

 

[ProDave]

Makes you wonder about issuing certs doesn't it ?    We did a vacant rewire last year for my  mate's relative ...they lived there for a year , decided they didn't like the area , put house up for sale.         

It appears that our  EIC  , issued only a year ago , was not acceptable to anyone....two buyers  had EICR ,s  done  , amazingly , it was found to be OK  .  

We fill in that  " This installation should be tested after 10 yrs" .    But I take the point that our work could have been altered or messed with during that year ,  but is there really any point in retaining the original certificate when no one accepts it .  

The ONLY time any of my customers show any interest in an EIC is new builds, where building control will want to see it. Any other time and you get a blank stare when you give them a bit of paper, and you just know it will be filed in a "safe place"

 

[Evans Electric]

That just about sums it up Dave  .

 

[Doc Hudson]

The Doc Hudson comments above are the hub of my concerns. Knowing how insurance companies try every which way to wriggle out of any claims made.

In times to come, I have some storm damage that breaks a window.... I make a claim.... ah, but you've installed a twin electrical socket, so sorry sir, but your insurance is invalidated !

Am I being ridiculous here?

Yes you are being ridiculous. They have no idea what is there at the moment, and no idea about if when or how something extra has or hasn't been added. Certain types of work are notifiable to the LABC under Part P building regulations. other work is not. An additional socket in a hallway, (single, twin or triple), is not notifiable under Part-P building regulations, and you can undertake the work yourself, if you consider it to be within your abilities. Your insurance company with have no idea about what was or wasn't there before or after you do your work. However my personal recommendation would be to have it designed, installed and testing by a qualified and competent person. But you are quite legally within your rights to have a go yourself and I very much doubt that any insurance company would bat an eyelid.

Or consider it another way; Before you took out your insurance, was the property fully tested and documented and an itemised specification of total number of sockets, switches, lights, circuits, fuse boxes etc, given to your insurance provider so they could fully ***** the risk your electrical installation places upon their policy premiums? If not, any other alterations will not effect the validity of the policy either.

Doc H. 

 

[Evans Electric]

The Doc Hudson comments above are the hub of my concerns. Knowing how insurance companies try every which way to wriggle out of any claims made.

In times to come, I have some storm damage that breaks a window.... I make a claim.... ah, but you've installed a twin electrical socket, so sorry sir, but your insurance is invalidated !

Am I being ridiculous here?

Not really ......  now lets see Sir ...this window you claimed for ...did you get a FENSA Certificate  for it  or did you fit yourself ?    If so your  house insurance is invalid .

And we see that you had a headache in 1999  , you purchased Aspirin , therefore you Self-medicated instead of seeing a brain surgeon  so you are now banned from using the NHS. 

You changed a wheel on your car ....have you been trained to do that ....are you qualified to inspect the tyre ...do you have the upper arm strength to tighten the wheel nuts ...... did you wear a Hi-Viz vest , totectors, gloves, goggles,  kevlar bulletproof vest and have all the traffic diverted  while you were on the public highway ?        I'm sorry  but your car insurance is invalid . 

 

[Doc Hudson]

Advice from insurers is to check your policy:

https://www.lv.com/atheart/features/5-common-diy-disasters-to-avoid

https://www.churchill.com/home-insurance/tips/invalidate-cover

Those only relate to you trying to claim for accidental damage whilst doing your DIY work.  If a person is competent enough to do the work without having an accident during the work then the insurance will not bother if at a later date you are making an unrelated claim. Which is what I understood the OP to be asking. 

Doc H. 

 

[Evans Electric]

Doc,  I keep wondering  , with all this notify /not notify  /  do it in England but not in Wales and forget all about it in Scotland business .

No one keeps records of our certs other than the householder .......  do the LBC  offices actually keep records of every single electrical job  , done every week in , say , here in Birmingham .     Must be a huge data base .     Because I was told at the start of Part Pee that  the LBC   had no way of recording the  data flooding in and were deleting it . 

Not sure about house insurance  but whatever you do ...don't  bolt anything to your vehicle  that alters the original specification for that vehicle  because there'll be a clause  letting them off the hook .

Bit like us with  Trade Insurance ...don't mention a gas torch  or soldering iron  ...it doubles it straightaway . 

Look at Stepps  with  that  Ford Thunderbird   V12   8 ltr    fuel injected  , turbo charged engine in his Morris Minor  Traveller  .....found he wasn't insured  because he had the windscreen  blacked out & couldn't see a damn thing  .  :C :innocent

 

[Doc Hudson]

Doc,  I keep wondering  , with all this notify /not notify  /  do it in England but not in Wales and forget all about it in Scotland business .

No one keeps records of our certs other than the householder .......  do the LBC  offices actually keep records of every single electrical job  , done every week in , say , here in Birmingham .     Must be a huge data base .     Because I was told at the start of Part Pee that  the LBC   had no way of recording the  data flooding in and were deleting it . 

Electronic data storage is relatively cheap and getting bigger and cheaper year on year. To hold a few lines of data saying a new fuse box was notified at an address by a certain contractor is going to be far less than the data required for planning & building applications and all the relevant associated plans & drawings etc. Yet LABC's seem quite able to store all of these applications, current and quite a lot of historic records as well for all of the properties in their borough. It is after all only a simple fixed record that a notification has been made by a contractor on a certain date that a specific type was work was completed. Once stored it will not need to be updated or changed, or trawled for advertising promotions. I really can't see why they cannot store it without to much difficulty. When compared to what all of the supermarkets store with our loyalty cards recording our shopping habits. or what the banks have to keep with all of our account transactions. I would think a few Part-P notifications is a relatively small database by comparison. Its not like they are recording bucket loads of hi-resolution photographs or a vast audio or video archive. Textual records are very small and easy to store .

Doc H.