Domestic Installer and Approved Contractor - What's the difference?

[Dambo]

The only "someone else's work" you can test and certify is that which you have supervised and seen all stages of including 1st fix cable runs etc.A PIR is a REPORT on an existing installation and does not include ANY certification.

Isn't C&G 2391 required when carrying out PIRs / testing the work of another electrician etc...?

 

[sparkytim]

Yes 2391 is the recognised qualification for Inspection and testing, but ANY competent person can carry out PIRs.

As stated Qualified Supervisors can Inspect and Test Others work, but they must be under THEIR supervision in order to certify it.

The ONLY exception to this is if LABC Appoint a qualified person to Inspect and Test anothers work on THEIR behalf.

One electrician can not certify the work of another if he has not had supervision/control over it.

 

[Dambo]

Yes 2391 is the recognised qualification for Inspection and testing, but ANY competent person can carry out PIRs.As stated Qualified Supervisors can Inspect and Test Others work, but they must be under THEIR supervision in order to certify it.

The ONLY exception to this is if LABC Appoint a qualified person to Inspect and Test anothers work on THEIR behalf.

One electrician can not certify the work of another if he has not had supervision/control over it.

I'm just a bit confused with this:

(1) If any competent person can carry out PIRs what is the need for 2391?

(2) If someone wants me to carry out some electrical testing when, for example, they are moving house and they need the required documentation, what would happen then?

I don't mean to seem argumentative, I just don't really understand it :Blushing :coat

 

[Apache]

I'm just a bit confused with this1) If any competent person can carry out PIRs what is the need for 2391?

(2) If someone wants me to carry out some electrical testing when, for example, they are moving house and they need the required documentation, what would happen then?

I don't mean to seem argumentative, I just don't really understand it :Blushing :coat

1. the qualification would be a simple way of proving competance in a court of law should the brown stuff hit the fan!

2. how do you mean? If they wanted you to have a quick look or issue a full PIR report?

 

[Dambo]

1. the qualification would be a simple way of proving competance in a court of law should the brown stuff hit the fan!2. how do you mean? If they wanted you to have a quick look or issue a full PIR report?

1. Is C&G 2392 sufficient too?

2. Aye, full PIR report.

 

[sparkytim]

Sorry if I have confused You Damien

As Patch says 2391 is a means of proving competence but not a legal requirement. Most of the scheme providers are taking on Electricians as Domestic installers without having 2391, but they are expected to obtain it within a reasonable amount of time. They require additional evidence of competence in order to be APPROVED by them for PIR work.

2392 is a newer LEVEL 2 Inspection and testing qualification as I understand to provide evidence of basic knowledge required by ALL electricians in verification of their work.

PIRs maybe carried out by any competent Electrician but some evidence of competence may be required by the person or organisation requesting it.

 

[Dambo]

Sorry if I have confused You DamienAs Patch says 2391 is a means of proving competence but not a legal requirement. Most of the scheme providers are taking on Electricians as Domestic installers without having 2391, but they are expected to obtain it within a reasonable amount of time. They require additional evidence of competence in order to be APPROVED by them for PIR work.

2392 is a newer LEVEL 2 Inspection and testing qualification as I understand to provide evidence of basic knowledge required by ALL electricians in verification of their work.

PIRs maybe carried out by any competent Electrician but some evidence of competence may be required by the person or organisation requesting it.

Sorry to sound like a complete doughnut sparkytim but it still doesn't really make sense. :_| bad day explode

Are you saying that I can carry out PIRs without C&G 2392 but not under the scheme provider name?

 

[Apache]

Are you saying that I can carry out PIRs without C&G 2392 but not under the scheme provider name?

You can IF you are competant. That is for you to decide or possibly prove in a court. That's the issue 99.999% of the time it would be fine, but IF you missed something and something was to happen to someone there are all sorts of liability issues.

There may be other constraints such as are you insured without specific qualifications? Do you have indemnity insurance?

As a Vet I am legally required to do 35 hours of further study to remain registered. If I messed something up and in court I hadn't done the required study they would use it against me.

You always have to think what's the possible worst case, not that ususlly everything would be fine.

Does that help?

 

[Dambo]

You can IF you are competant. That is for you to decide or possibly prove in a court. That's the issue 99.999% of the time it would be fine, but IF you missed something and something was to happen to someone there are all sorts of liability issues.There may be other constraints such as are you insured without specific qualifications? Do you have indemnity insurance?

As a Vet I am legally required to do 35 hours of further study to remain registered. If I messed something up and in court I hadn't done the required study they would use it against me.

You always have to think what's the possible worst case, not that ususlly everything would be fine.

Does that help?

Aye, it does help a wee bit

I guess what i'm trying to find out is if I go on a job and the customer says 'are you a qualified electrician?' I can show them the applicable certificates to prove that I am. But if they say 'are you qualified to carry out PIRs?' am I?

Like I say I don't mean to sound like a broken record but it just seems to be such a grey area, or maybe i'm just making it seem that way :C :^O

 

[Manator]

One easy way to sum it up for you is like this. If you carry out a PIR and the brown stuff hits the fan, you can prove that you are competant by having the 2391 certificate.

If you do not have the 2391 you would have to prove your competance in another way, this could be harder to do, but not impossible.

One thing you can not do is issue PIR,s with your scheme providers logo unless they have allowed you to do so.

 

[Andy™]

1. the qualification would be a simple way of proving competance in a court of law should the brown stuff hit the fan!

not really patch...

if the brown stuff does hit the fan, and you go to court, then the simple fact your in court proves you were not competent!

 

[NozSpark]

Sorry if I have confused You DamienAs Patch says 2391 is a means of proving competence but not a legal requirement. Most of the scheme providers are taking on Electricians as Domestic installers without having 2391, but they are expected to obtain it within a reasonable amount of time. They require additional evidence of competence in order to be APPROVED by them for PIR work.

2392 is a newer LEVEL 2 Inspection and testing qualification as I understand to provide evidence of basic knowledge required by ALL electricians in verification of their work.

PIRs maybe carried out by any competent Electrician but some evidence of competence may be required by the person or organisation requesting it.

TBH I think Tim has it here...

Lets go through the qualifications

2382 - Certificate in the Requirements for Electrical Installations (BS 7671:2008)

2391 - Inspection, Testing, Design and Certification of Electrical Installations (If you want to inspect and test electrical installations, then this qualification is right for you. This qualification has been developed to satisfy the requirements for Proposed Qualified Supervisors (PQSs) for various scheme operatives.)

2392 - Certificate in Fundamental Inspection, Testing and Initial Verification (This qualification is aimed at practising electricians who have not carried out inspection and testing since qualifying or who require some update training before going on to achieve the 2391-10. )

The above information was taken from the C&G website and I think the most revealing word is "Fundamental" in the title of the 2392 course.

So if you don't have 2391 I would not say that you were qualified to do PIR's, this has no reflection on your competence; however it does help prove it.

I would think that not having 2391 and doing PIR's could possibly have 2 problems

1. If the brown stuff hit how would you prove competence in court?

2. If you needed to claim on your PI insurance at any time, could the insurance company wriggle out of paying due to the fact that you weren't qualified?

 

[Voltimax]

TBH I think Tim has it here...If you needed to claim on your PI insurance at any time, could the insurance company wriggle out of paying due to the fact that you weren't qualified?

Yes Noz they could. Public liability won't cover you for third party inspections. If you want to do PIR's then the order of the day is 2391 and

 

[NozSpark]

But what I said was,, even if you had Public Indemnity insurance could the insurance company wriggle out of a claim if you weren't qualified / have 2391???

 

[Voltimax]

Sorry Noz, yes I believe they could. Readeth the small printeth

 

[Apache]

[quote name='Andy

 

[Andy™]

So - everyone accused of a crime and brought into a court is guilty?

no, but if youve done something seriously wrong, so wrong its gone to court, then your obviously not competent

 

[Apache]

[quote name='Andy

 

[Voltimax]

Well either way you're screwed

 

[Andy™]

It might not be your fault, but in this blame laying society they might be trying to use you as a scapegoat.

maybe wasnt too clear... if you have done it wrong, not if your being accused of it.

if your being accused of it, then 2391 would be a help, but you could also prove competence by answering questions etc