Fire alarm upgrade

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

I have been maintaining & modifying a fire alarm system at a 'care in the community' type house (its not classed as a residential care home, although thats what it is)  for many years. There are  many things wrong that i always include on the quarterly report, but the system works and is maintained. Some of the non compliances are 

The supply wired in pvc/pvc

System not zoned properly (should be divided up more)

Some detectors too near light fittings

No visual beacons 

Main panel in middle of building, not near any external door or window (due to extensions)

Some detection zones wired in pvc/pvc ( allowed at the time)

Call points not directly by exit doors due to building alterations

Its a standard conventional 4 zone panel, 2 bell circuits system and the panel now needs replacing. This time they have listened to me and agreed to move the panel to the entrance lobby & renew the feed.  A few questions

1) If i move the position and fit a replacement panel, as long as i list what is still 'wrong' am i off the hook or am i liable for the whole system

2) Easiest way to do this is to extend the cables in 2 x 7c FP cable. If i mix zones & bells in these 2 cables is this allowed under BS5839, obviously everything will be fire rated its the running the zones together i cant find any reference to. Its no different to singles in trunking and conduit in my eyes

3) At least one detector zone is wired in twin & earth pvc/pvc. Is this  ok to leave (once again is a fire alarm certification similar to  BS7671  where as long as you indicate what you have done and signing for , your covered)

I am looking into fitting the replacement panel in the same position and fitting a repeater by the front door, but do the points above still stand

awaiting your answers eagerly  

 

[phil d]

I have been maintaining & modifying a fire alarm system at a 'care in the community' type house (its not classed as a residential care home, although thats what it is)  for many years. There are  many things wrong that i always include on the quarterly report, but the system works and is maintained. Some of the non compliances are 

The supply wired in pvc/pvc

System not zoned properly (should be divided up more)

Some detectors too near light fittings

No visual beacons 

Main panel in middle of building, not near any external door or window (due to extensions)

Some detection zones wired in pvc/pvc ( allowed at the time)

Call points not directly by exit doors due to building alterations

Its a standard conventional 4 zone panel, 2 bell circuits system and the panel now needs replacing. This time they have listened to me and agreed to move the panel to the entrance lobby & renew the feed.  A few questions

1) If i move the position and fit a replacement panel, as long as i list what is still 'wrong' am i off the hook or am i liable for the whole system

2) Easiest way to do this is to extend the cables in 2 x 7c FP cable. If i mix zones & bells in these 2 cables is this allowed under BS5839, obviously everything will be fire rated its the running the zones together i cant find any reference to. Its no different to singles in trunking and conduit in my eyes

3) At least one detector zone is wired in twin & earth pvc/pvc. Is this  ok to leave (once again is a fire alarm certification similar to  BS7671  where as long as you indicate what you have done and signing for , your covered)

I am looking into fitting the replacement panel in the same position and fitting a repeater by the front door, but do the points above still stand

awaiting your answers eagerly  

Ctec, have an excellent technical department who'd probably be happy to advise you. From my personal opinion as you are majorly altering the system I think you'd have to install vads (combined strobe and sounder), My concerns would be largely around two things, one, the age of detectors, most manufacturers recommend replacement every ten years, and two the fact the sounder circuits are wired in pvc. fire damage to a detector circuit would probably result in an alarm being generated, fire damage to a sounder circuit could potentially render the sounders inoperative.

 

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

I said detection zones wired in pvc, not sounders. I think all the detectors have been changed over the last 5 years. I will check out CTec

 

[UNG]

Rather confused by the OP as it gives the impression that the mods to the system have been carried out by a number of companies over the years while the maintenance and testing has been carried out by one.

Questions would need to be asked why the system is not currently zoned properly, is this because nobody suggested / spec'ed a change of panel to 8 or 16 zones and it's location as the building was extended and / or modified.

Without seeing any layout drawings, the fire risk assessment, or the existing system wiring and without knowing why the existing panel is being changed now it would appear that it is time for the customer to bite the bullet and replace the existing system with one that suits the premises and current legislation. My thoughts would be an addressable panel with I/O units to pick up the existing detection modified to improve the zoning and even look to replace some of the existing with addessable detectors, VADS would also need to be installed to comply with current legislation

Seems to me that the horse has long since bolted and now somebody has decided to close the gate is this because of an RRO visitation?

 

[kerching]

+1 to Ctec

very helpful

ring them NOW before a large can of worms is opened and slithers out of control

 

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

I spoke to my local wholesaler who just happens to stock C Tec. It seems the way forward here is to replace the existing panel with a C Tec one and fit a repeater panel by the front door. The repeater  will give full access to the system and only needs 1, 2 core FP link. A 8 zone panel will replace the 4 zone .

The system has indeed been altered by many people in the past  as the building is altered and extended. From the 1st day i started doing the maintenance i have listed many non-compliances & put in writing it is there responsibility to do a risk assessment on many  areas.  Until this problem occurred, and they have just put a conservatory across the rear fire exit with no further fire alarm or emergency lighting i have not felt any of my points raised an Unsatisfactory  report.    They keep well on top of all other legislation and have told me they have checked all my points and they are ok (An example was the local council inspecting other things commented as long as drawings of the layouts and zones are next to each exit, the fire alarm panel was good enough where it was) . It has got to the stage this week where the panel buttons have started to break through the plastic front, the internal buzzer has stopped and the batteries need changing and  they have agreed to move the panel . Reading up on BS5839 again this morning isnt clear where the zoning is concerned regarding the layout on this job, not how i would do it but may confirm, for example 24hr staff are present.

I am going to be fitting a new panel to replace the existing  &  a new repeater under a emergency situation where the existing is now not conforming. Once done then address the other problems

 

[kerching]

I used to do loads of fire alarms ....always used C Tec conventional systems , then went on to C Tec Alarm sense system. Really impressed

and their tech support is second to none 

 

[phil d]

I used to do loads of fire alarms ....always used C Tec conventional systems , then went on to C Tec Alarm sense system. Really impressed

and their tech support is second to none 

Plus if you come over to my neck of the woods for one of their free training days they do an excellent lunch, proper northern grub, pies, peas, gravy and stuff, not this vegetarian junk that seems all too common these days.

 

[Tom Fire]

Assuming that the building is less than 300sm it would be ok on a single zone, otherwise it would need to be more zones BS5839-1:2017 clause  13.2.1 c. 

Wiring in 7 core cable Clause 12.2.2 b would stop this because a single cut in the cable may disable more than 2000sqm .b) A single short circuit or open circuit fault on an automatic fire detector circuit should neither disable protection within an area of more than 2 000 m2, nor on more than one floor of the building plus a maximum of five devices.

in my humble opinion you are carrying out major works and the system would need to comply fully with both 7671 and BS5839-1. Id agree with UNO if you have good fire cable in the sounder circuits extend that into a loop and install an addressable system.