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[shaunuk]

initial losses will be hidden by the BMS

I also had a phev for a bit and then got a first gen ionic in 2016 - I put 110k miles on the clock, about 82% range left after about 1600 charge cycles, degradation of the cells would have been higher than 18% loss, but the BMS would have hidden the first 5% or so of the original capacity as a buffer.

again, those were not LFP batteries which will have a much longer life time...

trick is to look at the warranty to know the expected life cycle, just looked at my Tesla warranty, car warranty valid until 50k, battery limited to 120k and also 8 years whichever is sooner - after that they dont want the liability on their books.

 

[Mrjmegson]

Yeh from everything I've seen, read, heard, EV batteries are lasting incredible lengths of time, they say now that they will last longer than the actual car bodywork.

 

[johnb2713]

Yeh from everything I've seen, read, heard, EV batteries are lasting incredible lengths of time, they say now that they will last longer than the actual car bodywork.

Not in the i3 it wont

 

[Mrjmegson]

Lol, no, I'm not sure anything will outlast carbon fibre and plastic, but not sure about the eco interior. Lol

 

[johnb2713]

Lol, no, I'm not sure anything will outlast carbon fibre and plastic, but not sure about the eco interior. Lol

The eco interior in my i3 is standing up to my use much better than the leather in Rangie!

 

[Mrjmegson]

Wow, that's impressive.

It's recycled bottles and some sort of plant derivatives isn't it. I do love the interior, but then I love the whole car.

I was looking at what I could get for the same money as the i3, and all of them have better range, by a not inconsiderable amount, and on average better spec, but my heart still wants an i3.

 

[johnb2713]

Wow, that's impressive.

It's recycled bottles and some sort of plant derivatives isn't it. I do love the interior, but then I love the whole car.

I was looking at what I could get for the same money as the i3, and all of them have better range, by a not inconsiderable amount, and on average better spec, but my heart still wants an i3.

It is a unique vehicle, theres nothing quite like it.

 

[johnb2713]

Take an electric car battery for example, good for 1500 cycles, compared to home energy storage batteries at 6000 cycles.

As I said earlier, not in my experience and not in the case of the i3, here's the spec of the Samsung SDI cells:


Allowing a low average of 120 miles per charge, 4600 charges gives me 552,000 miles on the clock. Remember also that the 80% point doesn't mean its dead, it means the range has dropped from 120 miles down to 96 miles, still perfectly usable.

 

[Mrjmegson]

That's incredible when you look at it like that.

And that level of degradation only occurs with full cycles, 0-100%, you'll get even more life if you do shallower charge cycles.

These sort of stats need to be in the media, instead of all the rubbish people like Clarkson spout about throwing batteries away after a year.

 

[Mrjmegson]

I've just been trying to replace a boost pressure sensor in my car, access limited as an aluminium Aircon pipe runs right over the top of the sensor, I managed to drop both aluminium nuts into the engine bay, the rubber pipe had literally melted to the sensor over the many years, and then my mate snapped the end of the new sensor off trying to retrieve the nuts.

The whole time this was happening, all I could think was, I wouldn't have any of the sxxt if I had an electric car.

 

[Geoff1946]

I would be very surprised if electric vehicles don't have their own horrors when it comes to repairs.
The design engineers have cost to build as their priority with ease of maintenance a poor second.

 

[johnb2713]

I've just been trying to replace a boost pressure sensor in my car, access limited as an aluminium Aircon pipe runs right over the top of the sensor, I managed to drop both aluminium nuts into the engine bay, the rubber pipe had literally melted to the sensor over the many years, and then my mate snapped the end of the new sensor off trying to retrieve the nuts.

The whole time this was happening, all I could think was, I wouldn't have any of the sxxt if I had an electric car.

Your probably right.
Essentially, EV's are very simple and they truly are. Theres a motor, a speed controller and a battery with a charger and thats it, thats all there is. People fear the unknown and there really is no need. In the case of the i3, the speed controller is housed in the motor terminal box, the charger is in there too. The high voltage cable from the battery plugs into the motor along with canbus. Theres no gearbox, no catalytic converter, no clutch etc, it really is NOT complicated when you compare it to a modern IC engined car - Fuel injectors, MAF's, Fuel Pressure, Fuel pump, Water temp sensor, Crank Position sensor, Lambda sensors, ignition coils, alternator, cambelts, water pumps, EGR the list goes on and thats just the engine, the transmission can have many sensors too. Diesel adds the complication of DPF and Adblue etc.

 

[Mrjmegson]

Yeh, as my mate always says, EVs are just big toys, as simple as simple gets.

I can't wait to own one, but also driving behind other people and seeing the s**t that spews out of the back, I can't wait until we are all driving them.

 

[Ronski]

trick is to look at the warranty to know the expected life cycle

That doesn't always work, Fogstar give a one year warranty on their EVE 280 cells, I suspect because it's just a cell so there is no control how it is used or abused. If you look at Fogstars very nice rack battery (uses Eve 100ah cells), which is very competitively priced it has an 8 year warranty.

I'm currently waiting on my next batch of EVE 280ah cells from Fogstar.

 

[johnb2713]

That doesn't always work, Fogstar give a one year warranty on their EVE 280 cells, I suspect because it's just a cell so there is no control how it is used or abused. If you look at Fogstars very nice rack battery (uses Eve 100ah cells), which is very competitively priced it has an 8 year warranty.

It really doesnt matter what Fogstar offer, theyre duty bound to Consumer Rights Act which has a much more realistic view. If it's reasonable to expect an item to run for 'x' years and it failed in a shorter time then it's considered to be substandard at the time of sale and the supplier held liable for repair / replacement. My Samsung TV failed at 4 years old and a certain big name supplier dismissed my approach to them saying it's warranty only. The courts decided different and a new TV was supplied. Dont take on face value what retailers tell you, know your rights!

I'm currently waiting on my next batch of EVE 280ah cells from Fogstar.

They do seem a decent company and the EVE cells are great apart from the nuts for the terminals with the built in washers, they're rubbish. I replaced all of mine with nuts, spring washer and plain washer, much better terminal security.

 

[Ronski]

@johnb2713 I'm aware of our legal rights regarding warranty, but as you found out you need to go to court as a lot of companies will try it on (not saying Fogstar would), and I highly suspect with a cell which can very easily be damaged by using the wrong settings it would be a tuff one. My point was more the fact that Fogstar give an 8 year warranty on EVE cells when they have their BMS in control.

You do realise that using a plain washer with a spring washer defeats the point of the spring washer don't you? (37 years as a mechanic)

PS. In 2006 I bought 42" Toshiba LCD TV but a year or two after I bought it I discovered that they had a habit of developing a line down the middle where two panels where joined, my TV was just over 3 years old when it developed the fault, fortunately I'd kept a copy of the details posted on a forum, and a phone call later I had a full credit authorisation from Toshiba for probably the same high street retailer as you, no need for the courts. The TV that replaced it in 2010 is still our main TV today.

 

[johnb2713]

@johnb2713 I'm aware of our legal rights regarding warranty, but as you found out you need to go to court as a lot of companies will try it on (not saying Fogstar would), and I highly suspect with a cell which can very easily be damaged by using the wrong settings it would be a tuff one. My point was more the fact that Fogstar give an 8 year warranty on EVE cells when they have their BMS in control.

It would be a fairly easy case to present if 16 cells in series and one fails........

You do realise that using a plain washer with a spring washer defeats the point of the spring washer don't you? (37 years as a mechanic)

I dont entirely agree with you on this one, the busbars supplied have elongated holes and the spring washer would drop into the slot which would not give even distribution of clamping force. By putting a plain washer on there the force is evened out and the spring washer will still function to stop the slackening of the nut. (50 years in all sorts of industries and the university of life).

PS. In 2006 I bought 42" Toshiba LCD TV but a year or two after I bought it I discovered that they had a habit of developing a line down the middle where two panels where joined, my TV was just over 3 years old when it developed the fault, fortunately I'd kept a copy of the details posted on a forum, and a phone call later I had a full credit authorisation from Toshiba for probably the same high street retailer as you, no need for the courts. The TV that replaced it in 2010 is still our main TV today.

The point is not to take on face value what the retailer may tell you. We had a customer in out IT shop that had an iPad 3.5 years old that had failed. We advised them to go back to the retailer who sold it, they were successful getting a refund and came to us for their replacement tablet. Lots of people just dont know their rights and lots of retailers dont realise what the law states.

 

[binky]

You do realise that using a plain washer with a spring washer defeats the point of the spring washer don't you? (37 years as a mechanic)

Not really, once upon a time bolts had much bigger heads, to reduce weight for aircraft, the head was reduced in size and washers added. Size of head/ washer is to spread the load over a large area reducing potential for the materials being clamped together failing. Spring washers don't do this, they are to prevent vibration loosening the bolt by maintaining a constant pressure on the bolt.