Hello God's

[Drew James]

Hi all.

I'm mostly a domestic sparky. Sole trader with an apprentice and at a bit of a cross roads at which way to take the business. Looking for advice on the apprentice and which way to go moving forwards.

 

[Sharpend]

So what specifically is the question? And what’s your thoughts on your apprentice?

 

[Drew James]

So what specifically is the question? And what’s your thoughts on your apprentice?

Really nice lad but I'm not sure its fully what he wants to do. He isn't as keen as I'd like. Always turns up, does as asked but isn't looking to push himself on. He is a second year and wanting to earn more money, which I want to pay. However, the minimum wage is going up and the cost to put him in a van due to insurance is very costly. What I am charging him out at won't cover the wage and van. So the question is, what can you charge a second year apprentice out at?

 

[Andy™]

why does an apprentice need a van?

 

[Sharpend]

The reality is if you aren’t covering the costs then your business plan is flawed. You are already in the back foot without setting out the door.
Perhaps and I’m being constructive with my critique, you need to look at how you operate your business before worrying whether the apprentice is keen enough for you?
What state in his development is he? What can he do, or more importantly what do you trust him to do?

 

[Drew James]

why does an apprentice need a van?

So he can continue on the bigger jobs while I start other jobs. It doesn’t always pay to have him on the smaller jobs.

 

[Drew James]

The reality is if you aren’t covering the costs then your business plan is flawed. You are already in the back foot without setting out the door.
Perhaps and I’m being constructive with my critique, you need to look at how you operate your business before worrying whether the apprentice is keen enough for you?
What state in his development is he? What can he do, or more importantly what do you trust him to do?

Competent at second fix mostly but lacks the ability to think for himself. I try to put myself in the customers shoes. What would I be willing to pay on a day rate basis. We are doing a lot of day rate at the moment. Priced work there is obviously a greater profit margin. It’s the day rate where the costs are tight.

 

[Sharpend]

I guess the reality is the majority of domestic work rarely requires more than one person, unless you specialise in rewires? There is an obvious answer to your problem, with so much upgrade work available these days, the firms with these contracts often look for subcontract teams?

Are you not experienced in commercial or industrial work yourself? As that’s where you usually require more than one person?
What made you decide on taking on an apprentice in the first place?

 

[Andy™]

So he can continue on the bigger jobs while I start other jobs. It doesn’t always pay to have him on the smaller jobs.

isnt the point of an apprentice that they are being trained and not supposed to be working unsupervised?

but youre right, doesnt make sense for smaller jobs. one of the main reasons why its not likely ill ever get an apprentice

 

[Drew James]

He never works alone. We do mostly new builds and renovations he never works alone. And he has been second fixing the basics for 2 years so he is competent at that. Then he gets guidance on DB’s and other involved tasks.

I had a van at the end of my second year and I was doing basic jobs unsupervised.

In an ideal world we just need to do bigger jobs where we need 2 pairs of hands, but he will never know anything else.

 

[Drew James]

I guess the reality is the majority of domestic work rarely requires more than one person, unless you specialise in rewires? There is an obvious answer to your problem, with so much upgrade work available these days, the firms with these contracts often look for subcontract teams?

Are you not experienced in commercial or industrial work yourself? As that’s where you usually require more than one person?
What made you decide on taking on an apprentice in the first place?

Yeah I’ve done a lot of commercial work.

I took him on due to a massive burst in work over the covid period. I’ve not taken on any extra work for 6 months, that work is coming to an end.

 

[binky]

Yeah I’ve done a lot of commercial work.

I took him on due to a massive burst in work over the covid period. I’ve not taken on any extra work for 6 months, that work is coming to an end.

so you have found out why employing anyone is a pain in the neck! Unless you can make enough money from when you are busy to cover wages for the quiet times, then it's a non-starter for 10. Van insurance is astronomical for the under 25s, you would be better off buying him a car he can use/ insure himself than trying to put a van through the business. I gave up on apprentices a few years ago, and gave up on staff too, I find it easier to partner with a few good subbies with their own vans and tools to cover busy periods, and work on my own the rest of the time. There's just enough money in domestic electrical work unless you can charge high rates. However, if you decide to stick with it, the ideal small business model is 3 people, yourself, and apprentice and a qualified spark, or you go bigger and need around 10 staff so you can sit at a desk all day organising. When I was doing a lot of solar panels, that worked fine as the margins were good enough, but with the demise of that line of work, I worked out one day I could work 3 days a week, lose all the hassle/ staff/ office etc etc, and make the same money with far less headaches.

 

[Drew James]

so you have found out why employing anyone is a pain in the neck! Unless you can make enough money from when you are busy to cover wages for the quiet times, then it's a non-starter for 10. Van insurance is astronomical for the under 25s, you would be better off buying him a car he can use/ insure himself than trying to put a van through the business. I gave up on apprentices a few years ago, and gave up on staff too, I find it easier to partner with a few good subbies with their own vans and tools to cover busy periods, and work on my own the rest of the time. There's just enough money in domestic electrical work unless you can charge high rates. However, if you decide to stick with it, the ideal small business model is 3 people, yourself, and apprentice and a qualified spark, or you go bigger and need around 10 staff so you can sit at a desk all day organising. When I was doing a lot of solar panels, that worked fine as the margins were good enough, but with the demise of that line of work, I worked out one day I could work 3 days a week, lose all the hassle/ staff/ office etc etc, and make the same money with far less headaches.

And that’s where the turning point is for me. I’ve been told 10 is the magic number, which isn’t the way I want to go. I think I’m at the point where he isn’t ready to be on his own, the costs to get him on the road are high and he is too expensive to have on the smaller jobs. It sounds like it’s a case of just getting through this stage.

Thanks for the advice/input so far

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Really nice lad but I'm not sure its fully what he wants to do. He isn't as keen as I'd like. Always turns up, does as asked but isn't looking to push himself on. He is a second year and wanting to earn more money, which I want to pay. However, the minimum wage is going up and the cost to put him in a van due to insurance is very costly. What I am charging him out at won't cover the wage and van. So the question is, what can you charge a second year apprentice out at?

Welcome to the forum...

I can't make any direct input relating to the "apprentice" question..
But in a free market any business can charge anything they like for any goods or services they provide..
(Unless they are in some strict contract agreement with a supplier.. or their products come with a pre marked cost on the packaging..)

e.g. I have been self employed since Feb 1999 and the amount I want to charge anyone is completely up to me...
The governing factor is if my potential customers are happy to pay what I am asking..

The success rate of how much work you get is typically down to geographical cost variations..
and the basic rule of supply & demand.. how many other local electricians are after your potential customers?

Which means you are the one who will know your area...
what the competition are doing and how many jobs you loose when quoting at your preferred costs..

On a positive note.... Even if you are going back to previous customers,
In the current economic climate almost every business are raising their costs!
and you still have to buy food and heat your home and clothe yourself..

So you do have a reasonable level of flexibility to say to customers, unfortunately my charges will have to increase to accommodate my additional overheads caused by Fuel, Gas, Electric & material costs all going up...
Plus your business insurance, materials, vehicle running costs..
and delays in material availability still rippling through due to Covid and the Suez Canal container ship delays. etc.. etc.. etc...

So my assessment is:-
(1) Work out how much you need to earn from your apprentice so you don't operate at a loss..

(2) Quote at these costs and see how many jobs you actually loose?

(3) If you still have sufficient work coming through.. problem solved!

(4) If your are loosing too much work... then you are driving up a Cul-De-Sac, or sitting in your canoe without a paddle!!


Which then raises the question..
Is this lad a proper "Apprentice" or just a "Mate"..?

I may be wrong.. But I always though apprentices had a greater level of legal security due to them being supported by government funding?

i.e. Back in my day.. (Late 1970's), as an Apprentice once you had completed the 6-month probation period...
(when you could be dismissed for being a total plonker),
You were pretty much protected unless the company actually went Bump & called in the Liquidators!!

e.g. if work was a bit tight and workers needed to be laid/off-made redundant,
then apprentices could NOT be brought into the 'Lay-off' or 'Redundancy' categories..

If your lad is a proper 100% pukka apprentice..
Then you may have to absorb a few additional losses to get rid of him..
compared to a casual mate brought in to assist on a few jobs!!

Bottom line is you have to get back to factual realistic costs for each job when trying to run a business.

 

[Flylead]

Just seen your query.
Can't answer your cost query but it seems you have a bigger issue.
Usually you know within a short time whether a trainee is going develop into a useful and confident guy.
Obviously you have to cover his cost otherwise you're paying a high price to have him.
Does the guy not have the capacity to think for himself, or does he just allow you to do his thinking for him?
What exams did he pass, after 2 years he ought to have something to show you?
Part of the deal of employing an apprentice is not just showing him the "job" but developing and encouraging him towards independence. If he's just a "helper" then you're not favouring him by letting him believe that he'll ever be able to practise and earn a living alone.
Seems that you need to have a serious talk with the guy, tell him the way you see it, talk about his cost and get some committent from him that he's going in the right direction otherwise, unkind though it is, cut it there and let him find something he really wants to do!
Sorry if this isn't helpful.