Help! Storage heater fuse keeps blowing....

[Gill]

Hello. I am new to this site so I believe I cannot add photographs. I hope I can explain in enough detail for someone to help us please.

We are 'accidental landlords', renting out my mum's house to help pay for her care.

The house has storage heaters and they worked well from when my parents moved there in 1984. Several of them were replaced over the years and the property has been rented since 2016. This year our tenants told us in May that all of them had stopped working. There is a light in the cupboard that comes on at midnight when the Economy 7 kicks in and this wasn't coming on.  My electrician (qualified, not odd job man) replaced the Economy 7 fuses but thought that there may be an issue with the meter. I offered to contact Bulb for them if they could authorise me to speak with them but our tenant called them and they replaced the meter in August. It was NOT replaced with a smart meter. Everything seemed ok and during the autumn we appointed someone to do a new EPC for us. He came back and said we would need to change 2 heaters for High Heat Retention to get the necessary rating. While I was researching and pricing the replacements our tenant said that 2 heaters were not working so it made sense for us to replace these 2. I did think it odd that 2 suddenly stopped at the same time. However, we bought them, from an excellent & helpful company, HW Electrics in Shropshire. Our usual electrician had been ill and as it was now nearing Christmas I wanted to get them done for our tenants. I asked a local electrician, had good reviews, I explained what had happened. He fitted them, and said they had to be programmed at midnight, the following morning they had not worked. I mentioned to him they were 'dual supply' and he said yeah, yeah I know how the dual supply works. He said he would go back the following Monday, then cancelled. Said between Christmas & NY, then cancelled. I wasn't happy and we had a disagreement. I paid him the agreed £240. I then contacted someone who had done some work for us a few years earlier (again qualified). Chris always turns up when he says, he said the first guy had NOT connected them to the 24 hour supply that activates the LED programmer and fan. He did that and left them for our tenant to program, he is quite capable. The following morning they had not worked. Chris returned and put these 2 heaters on, I think he said he split the circuit. Anyway 13 January they were both working fine and have been for 2 weeks until last weekend. Now the 2 new ones are not working again. I'm assuming it's the fuse again but it is no solution to just keep replacing the fuse. I'm at my wits end. My tenants are good people and I've so far paid over £2000 and still have heaters not working for them.

I'm so sorry this is so long!!!

 

[ProDave]

Really your electrician should be sorting this, rather than an internet forum.

Reading between the lines and making an educated guess, it sounds like 2 old storage heaters shared the same fuse.  They have been replaced with 2 larger storage heaters that also have a permanent supply.

They worked for a while until the "fuse" went.  Is it really a fuse or a circuit breaker.

Almost certainly the "fuse" is too small to power the two new heaters.  What needs to happen depends on the wiring, it might be as simple as a larger "fuse" or it might be better to rewire one of them so each has it's own supply and it's own "fuse"

but your electrician should know that and be better placed than us to propose a solution as he knows what is there.

 

[Gill]

Thank you Dave. I knew it was a big ask.

The system has, I believe 2 'barrel' fuses.

I believe the new heaters are, upstairs, 1kw equivalent 2.2kw (the old ones were Creda TSR12A 1.68 kw input rating and downstairs new ones 1.5kw equivalent 3.4kw (the old ones which were Dimplex XT24 and they were 3.4kw loading. I have no idea what I'm talking about but wonder if this info might help! I believed they were replaced with similar power demand but.....

 

[binky]

Hmmm, so dual supply needs 4 core cable (2 lives, 1 neutral and an earth) so you can provide a permanent supply for off-peak function. First sparky is therefore a dick, as old units would have worked on 3 core cable only - do how did he supply a permanent supply?  Answer, he probably didn't so not much chance of anything working. . I'm intrigued on how second sparky supplied a permanent live without re-cabling - possible he has linked terminals in the heaters? Either way there is something fundmentally wrong with how this is set-up, but wthout seeing the installation it's hard to comment further. 

 

[Gill]

Because we live 60 miles from the property and are of an age where travel is unwise at this time, we have not looked at the work that has been done other than some photos we were sent. I believe that the 24 hour supply was done by running a spur from the nearest 3 pin socket to a new, switched outlet next to the heater.  When I can get in touch with the  second electrician, I will ask if it would be safe to put a slightly higher rated fuse in the box, which has 2 fuses in, and see if that fixes it.

Thank you for your answers by the way.

 

[Murdoch]

Because we live 60 miles from the property and are of an age where travel is unwise at this time, we have not looked at the work that has been done other than some photos we were sent. I believe that the 24 hour supply was done by running a spur from the nearest 3 pin socket to a new, switched outlet next to the heater.  When I can get in touch with the  second electrician, I will ask if it would be safe to put a slightly higher rated fuse in the box, which has 2 fuses in, and see if that fixes it.

Thank you for your answers by the way.

you can’t just uprate the fuse in the fuseboard .... it’s not that simple

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Because we live 60 miles from the property and are of an age where travel is unwise at this time, we have not looked at the work that has been done other than some photos we were sent. I believe that the 24 hour supply was done by running a spur from the nearest 3 pin socket to a new, switched outlet next to the heater.  When I can get in touch with the  second electrician, I will ask if it would be safe to put a slightly higher rated fuse in the box, which has 2 fuses in, and see if that fixes it.

Thank you for your answers by the way.

Fuses are in circuits there to protect the cables from damage in the event of a fault...

Putting a larger rating fuse in, will just increase the probability of the cable(s) being damaged...

Most circuits are already designed and installed with the highest fuse rating for the cable sized fitted..

As there is no financial logic to installing more expense larger cables if the expected load and fuse rating doesn't require it.    

 

[Gill]

Ok. Thanks again for all the advice. There problem is still there and the second electrician has not responded to texts or calls. An idea I had was to get the fuse changed again and not run both heaters. In this weather one working heater is better than none. If it is an overloading problem, not having both on should be ok?

The fuses are the  Cylindrical type, 2 in a switched box. If I cannot get someone to do it, it is something I have done before. As you can tell I am running out of ideas. I am even wondering, if it is an overload problem, could one of the 3 heater elements in one heater, be disconnected, so that the two running will not draw so much power?

 

[Gill]

 The fuse box is the one on the top right of the picture View attachment 015a.pdf

 

[Murdoch]

 The fuse box is the one on the top right of the picture View attachment 11130

that doesn’t help but I can tell you that it’s very old

you really need a competent spark to go and do a proper assessment

where in the uk is said property?

 

[ProDave]

you really need a competent spark to go and do a proper assessment

Unlike the spark that fitted the new main CU that appears to be overlapping on top of the small Wylex to the left.

Not seen "stacked CU's" before.

 

[Gill]

that doesn’t help but I can tell you that it’s very old

you really need a competent spark to go and do a proper assessment

where in the uk is said property?

Crayford SE London

 

[Murdoch]

Unlike the spark that fitted the new main CU that appears to be overlapping on top of the small Wylex to the left.

Didn't notice that - how dam stupid is that.

Crayford SE London

A bit outside my radius - sorry

 

[Gill]

Unlike the spark that fitted the new main CU that appears to be overlapping on top of the small Wylex to the left.

Not seen "stacked CU's" before.

It is an old system, sometime before 1984, in an older property 1916 . It was updated 2016 with new fuse box and back board to comply with Electrical safety certificate.

 

[Murdoch]

It is an old system, sometime before 1984, in an older property 1916 . It was updated 2016 with new fuse box and back board to comply with Electrical safety certificate.

Well the muppet that fitted that needs shooting - you won't be able to remove the cover of the left hand old CU without removing the new metal one first!

 

[Gill]

Well the muppet that fitted that needs shooting - you won't be able to remove the cover of the left hand old CU without removing the new metal one first!

I can see what you mean. I believe that is the box that feeds the electric shower upstairs.

 

[Murdoch]

I can see what you mean. I believe that is the box that feeds the electric shower upstairs.

thats going to be an expensive fault to fix when its needed and more to the point showers do need RCD protection - so what does your recent EICR say on the subject?

I always quote to integrate extra boards into a single unit where possible -

 

[Geoff1946]

I can see what you mean. I believe that is the box that feeds the electric shower upstairs.

I doubt if that's your shower. It's got two relatively small cables coming out whilst a shower would be one larger cable.  With a bit of luck the newer panel will have one or more RCDs and include the shower.

 

[kerching]

Storage heaters have the potential to save the home owner a lot of money. The rate to run a storage heater depends on its size, model and your room/s measurements. A heater designed with the proper insulation can be highly energy efficient and costs a lot less than some other traditional forms of heating because they heat up during the night, when electricity is cheaper, and release warmth throughout the day. A thermostat and timer system coupled with proper insulation in your home will allow you full control over your heating system.

It is important to consider where you live when purchasing a storage heater. If you live in a very cold area, you may need a higher wattage than expected in order to sufficiently heat your home. You should always get professional advice before purchasing any new heater; speak to a qualified electrician about your needs and requirements prior to buying to ensure absolute happiness with your heater.

WHAT A LOAD OF Radishes!

just saying 

 

[Murdoch]

speak to a qualified electrician about your needs and requirements prior to buying to ensure absolute happiness with your heater.

ha ha ha  :slap