Hot water from PV

[BorisJ]

It won't, along with oil. Too many people want it! People in for a big shock I'm afraid.

I’ve been told stories of oil running out for the last 30 years. But they still keep finding more.

 

[Murdoch]

I’ve been told stories of oil running out for the last 30 years. But they still keep finding more.

The oil companies know where most of it is - extracting it "upsets" people - look no further than Scotland (SNP and Green) coalition to see this happening now

 

[Whodat]

The oil companies know where most of it is - extracting it "upsets" people - look no further than Scotland (SNP and Green) coalition to see this happening now

Plus basic economics apply. They know where most of it is, but they take the low hanging fruit (in terms of cost to extract and therefore price to sell) first. I.e. it might still be around in thirty years but it'll be the hardest to extract and costly that is left. Notice how they "keep finding it", yet it keeps getting more expensive?!

Not to mention the whole end-of-civilisation-as-we-know-it mess if we keep burning the stuff.

 

[revjames]

I am toying with the idea of a self install but using some of the output to feed a large HW cylinder. The water could be heated from PV via 3KW element and the water circulated round rads. Maybe a 2nd cyl for DHW or would the pre heated water work with the gas boiler?
For me with a combined gas/electricity bill of £3.5k pa I am keen to do something that would give a good ROI and something I could do myself, as others have said, time shifting heavy loads and using all generated power would negate the need for connecting to grid.

 

[BorisJ]

I am toying with the idea of a self install but using some of the output to feed a large HW cylinder. The water could be heated from PV via 3KW element and the water circulated round rads. Maybe a 2nd cyl for DHW or would the pre heated water work with the gas boiler?
For me with a combined gas/electricity bill of £3.5k pa I am keen to do something that would give a good ROI and something I could do myself, as others have said, time shifting heavy loads and using all generated power would negate the need for connecting to grid.

3Kw is not going to be enough for your radiators though.

 

[binky]

I am toying with the idea of a self install but using some of the output to feed a large HW cylinder. The water could be heated from PV via 3KW element and the water circulated round rads. Maybe a 2nd cyl for DHW or would the pre heated water work with the gas boiler?
For me with a combined gas/electricity bill of £3.5k pa I am keen to do something that would give a good ROI and something I could do myself, as others have said, time shifting heavy loads and using all generated power would negate the need for connecting to grid.

Hot water is one thing, central heating is a much higher demand, if you look at electric boilers they start at 9kW. What I have done previously is wire an immersion controller to a very basic convection heater - NB no electronic controls are compatible with the way immersion controllers work, it has to be a simple resistive load. This allowed pre-heating areas of the house thereby reducing the load on the central heating system.

Might be worth looking at solar thermal for heating, although I hate to think how much that would cost.

 

[binky]

The oil companies know where most of it is - extracting it "upsets" people - look no further than Scotland (SNP and Green) coalition to see this happening now

what always bother me is objections to dams and hydro because of some rare moss or newt, or the like. The green lobby is rather diverse and sometimes rather non-sensical. Scotland has so much wind and water resources they really could go electric / hydrogen based, and probably supply the whole of the UK?

There's shed loads of oil in shale in Canada, but what an environmetal disaster that is. They burn 1 barrel of oil for every 3 they produce, never mind trashing the whole area. We just can't do things like that, except perhaps in desperation or the planet really will overheat rapidly.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

A lot of my customers were retired and fed up with getting naff all in their ISAs or other investment/ savings pots. Many also wanted to leave the planet a better place for their grandchildren.

Here lies a significant problem that very few people actually mention when talking about all this green energy stuff...

The majority of the solutions are still toys for the rich to play with..
Those who do have a very healthy retirement pots, and/or numerous savings / shares portfolios..
and can afford to dabble in solar and EV's in the same way they would invest a bit in the stock market..

And all the fiasco with liberalisation of UK's financial markets hasn't helped either, when..
Building societies became banks..
Banks became mortgage providers..
Supermarkets started offering credit cards..
and Endowment policies became the golden ticket..
(just pay the interest, with promises of a massive lump sum from the investment returns, to pay off your mortgage and have enough to buy a flash car or exotic holiday etc)..

Which of course were all sold and pushed by "experts".. who actually proved to be flawed in their wisdom,
with a massive trail of negative equity damage left in its tracks!!

A significant result of all this is that far too many younger generation are simply unable to get onto the property ladder..
and certainly would not stand a cat in hells chance of having enough disposable income to even consider any Solar options and/or EV's

Unfortunately as a country we have a very small global climate impact.. And a few of the more wealthy sticking some solar panels on their roofs is not going to do much to help anyone's children / grandchildren's futures against a change in a global climate.

Unless we can start creating real solutions that are affordable and work for everyone, not just the select minority, I fear that in 20 or 30+ years we will be looking back at another big mess up just as the endowment policy fiasco was..

And in my opinion none of this has been helped by the privatisation & competition of energy suppliers, that now has also proved to be another fiasco with so many companies failing over recent months.. (more experts got it wrong!!)

Gas / Electricity / Water are basic commodities that we all have to use just as the air that we breath..
and the greenest solution should be self sustainable as a nation which is affordable for the whole population..
and not have to be reliant on purchasing these from other countries having to accommodate their price changes.

What about the poor sods stuck in the rental sector, probably struggling to pay rent/heating/clothes/food, (lets not forget the vast number of food-banks around the country!), who may also want to be more green and energy efficient in their lifestyles, but are simply priced out of any choice..

And of course if we had a decent reliable national public transportation system combining both bus & rail networks..
less people would need to use their own personal cars...
thus less pollution from petrol / diesel ..
and less need for so many journeys in EV's, and less need for electricity to charge them!

But then there goes another experts decision for competition and splitting the rail network..
and allowing private companies to cherry pick the best bus routes to provide a service for!


Basically we need to stop being so narrow minded when looking at our solutions and look more at the bigger picture about how real people actual live and consume fuel energy.. No good saving a pound in one box when you are wasting five pound in another box!
We have still got a very long way to go...
and currently the majority of solutions banded around are simply not affordable for the mass population!

 

[binky]

Here lies a significant problem that very few people actually mention when talking about all this green energy stuff...

The majority of the solutions are still toys for the rich to play with..
Those who do have a very healthy retirement pots, and/or numerous savings / shares portfolios..
and can afford to dabble in solar and EV's in the same way they would invest a bit in the stock market..

And all the fiasco with liberalisation of UK's financial markets hasn't helped either, when..
Building societies became banks..
Banks became mortgage providers..
Supermarkets started offering credit cards..
and Endowment policies became the golden ticket..
(just pay the interest, with promises of a massive lump sum from the investment returns, to pay off your mortgage and have enough to buy a flash car or exotic holiday etc)..

Which of course were all sold and pushed by "experts".. who actually proved to be flawed in their wisdom,
with a massive trail of negative equity damage left in its tracks!!

A significant result of all this is that far too many younger generation are simply unable to get onto the property ladder..
and certainly would not stand a cat in hells chance of having enough disposable income to even consider any Solar options and/or EV's

Unfortunately as a country we have a very small global climate impact.. And a few of the more wealthy sticking some solar panels on their roofs is not going to do much to help anyone's children / grandchildren's futures against a change in a global climate.

Unless we can start creating real solutions that are affordable and work for everyone, not just the select minority, I fear that in 20 or 30+ years we will be looking back at another big mess up just as the endowment policy fiasco was..

And in my opinion none of this has been helped by the privatisation & competition of energy suppliers, that now has also proved to be another fiasco with so many companies failing over recent months.. (more experts got it wrong!!)

Gas / Electricity / Water are basic commodities that we all have to use just as the air that we breath..
and the greenest solution should be self sustainable as a nation which is affordable for the whole population..
and not have to be reliant on purchasing these from other countries having to accommodate their price changes.

What about the poor sods stuck in the rental sector, probably struggling to pay rent/heating/clothes/food, (lets not forget the vast number of food-banks around the country!), who may also want to be more green and energy efficient in their lifestyles, but are simply priced out of any choice..

And of course if we had a decent reliable national public transportation system combining both bus & rail networks..
less people would need to use their own personal cars...
thus less pollution from petrol / diesel ..
and less need for so many journeys in EV's, and less need for electricity to charge them!

But then there goes another experts decision for competition and splitting the rail network..
and allowing private companies to cherry pick the best bus routes to provide a service for!


Basically we need to stop being so narrow minded when looking at our solutions and look more at the bigger picture about how real people actual live and consume fuel energy.. No good saving a pound in one box when you are wasting five pound in another box!
We have still got a very long way to go...
and currently the majority of solutions banded around are simply not affordable for the mass population!

so what you are saying is that the old centralised state way of running basic servies is better than the ''free for all' market economy the current government is especially devoted to - couldn't agree more. When the rail franchise for East Anglia was taken back into state control, the women running the show did a very good job and were contributing something like £1 billion a year to the tax coffers. So did the government keep it that way? Of course not, they sold the franchise off to a bunch of foreigners asap FFS! Another fine example is the deal for Hinkley Point nuclear power plant means the Chinese government will make a killing from us - it would have been cheaper for the UK tax payer to borrow the money and be charged for the leccy at cost!

Sad fact is all governments for the last 40 years, since Thatcher have basically followed the same system of selling off resources for share holders to make money from. That, in it's own right, doesn't bother me particularly, it's more the fact that the big companies that can afford to buy and run said services are allowed to offshore profits, declare non-dom status etc etc so effectively constantly draining the UK of money, and we wonder why we are all getting poorer! If you look back over the last 40 years, the lot of the ordinary person (maybe not so much those of retirement age) has got worse, yet the wealthy have increased their profits and financial gain exponentially, especially in the last 12 years during austerity, yet food banks have had to expand to meet demand - disguting! It's not in the financial interests of large companies and coporations to plan ahead for the the UK energy sector - scarce resouces make them more profits so why should they? Of all the things I detest over my lifetime, it's the lack of planning for the future across the board, again not really helped when we potentially change governments every 5 years. I'm trying to think how long ago we were talking about running out of power stations on this very forum. Over 25 years ago when I was studying my Masters, there was wide spread discussion about the dwindling / more expensive to extract reserves of oil and gas, and how this would affect society as we know it today. It's all been very predictable, along with climate change, yet we ploughed on regardless, encouraged to live ever more wasteful lifestyles (apart form the poor who were, and are, still firked big time).

One thing I will disagree with you about though is the UK's CO2 contribution to climate change. It is often cited as 2%, but that's because we off shored all our industry to China and other parts of the third world, so they get the CO2 as being theirs. There's a lot of argument about how much of that we should be accoutable for, and it's still smallish in global terms, but we also now need to add the Brexit factor. With less sales and trade to the nearby continent, we will be increasing the offshore CO2 as we move goods around the world from furhter afield.

Personally I think the UK should focus on becoming far more self sufficent where ever possible. I'm of the opinion that such a policy will create new, decent jobs, help insulate us from the effects of climate change and world politics, and hopefully lead to the UK becoming a better place to live than it is currently. I'm doing my own little bit on this front, I'm growing tomatoes and other veg for the frst time in years. I wont change the world, but every little helps .

 

[steptoe]

growing tomatoes and other veg for the frst time in years. I wont change the world, but every little helps .

That'll be that dratted climate change and the planet heating up that has allowed you to do that

Now , I'm wondering just who was in charge when Beeching started his demolition of the railways in the '60s ,

 

[Sharpend]

I do believe it was written that new gas boilers are to be phased out in next few years, (so let’s keep the old inefficient ones instead) in favour for ASHP’s, although it has gone a little quiet, unlike the sound of the ASHP we installed a few years back, sounded like a load of helicopters going over!!

As for this country doing what is right, well that ship sailed and sunk never to be seen again a long time ago.
The interest from certain people, businesses etc is only on the here and now, they really do believe that tomorrow never gets here.

 

[binky]

That'll be that dratted climate change and the planet heating up that has allowed you to do that

Now , I'm wondering just who was in charge when Beeching started his demolition of the railways in the '60s ,

Nah, just getting around to it, and guaranteed food prices going up. Plus supermarket toms taste of nothing.

Ahh Beeching, the man with strong links to the car industry, planet destroying objects that they are

 

[Berserkerboy]

what always bother me is objections to dams and hydro because of some rare moss or newt, or the like. The green lobby is rather diverse and sometimes rather non-sensical. Scotland has so much wind and water resources they really could go electric / hydrogen based, and probably supply the whole of the UK?

There's shed loads of oil in shale in Canada, but what an environmetal disaster that is. They burn 1 barrel of oil for every 3 they produce, never mind trashing the whole area. We just can't do things like that, except perhaps in desperation or the planet really will overheat rapidly.

Some of the objections are nonsense. There's no joined-up thinking. Don't they realise the damage climate change will visit on a whole raft of other species. Damage limitation overall is what we should aim for.

 

[Berserkerboy]

Nah, just getting around to it, and guaranteed food prices going up. Plus supermarket toms taste of nothing.

Ahh Beeching, the man with strong links to the car industry, planet destroying objects that they are

We grow most of our food. Tomatoes and potatoes that taste as they should. Only eat toms fresh while in season and bottle the rest for cooking the rest of the year.

 

[steptoe]

Ahh Beeching, the man with strong links to the car industry, planet destroying objects that they are

AHH, Beeching, backed by your so beloved Labour party that decimated the railways, that same Beeching,?
And which party s it you say is decimating national industry.?

 

[binky]

AHH, Beeching, backed by your so beloved Labour party that decimated the railways, that same Beeching,?
And which party s it you say is decimating national industry.?

Remind me, how many coal miners are left in the UK?

I am not a labour supporter, I just hate the current Tory party, led by a ******* liar.

 

[Sharpend]

And there was me thinking there was only one party these days, clearly you’ll can see some differences

 

[binky]

And there was me thinking there was only one party these days, clearly you’ll can see some differences

It certainly feels that way. I really feel the voting system needs changing to some form of proportional representation. As much as I never liked UKIP, at one point they got 4,000,000 votes, but returned only 1 MP, that just isn't right. I'm also fed up of voting against whoever I dislike most rather than voting for a cause I believe in. We are getting far too much like the the yanks, were money buys elections.

 

[Berserkerboy]

PR is the only fair system. Ridiculous the seat system we have. Undemocratic.
Also,..., 16 year olds getting the vote? Think you should contribute to society before you can affect it.

 

[Murdoch]

PR is the only fair system. Ridiculous the seat system we have. Undemocratic.

I tend to agree

https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk...have-looked-with-proportional-representation/
But Turkeys will NEVER vote for Xmas