How to become a trade electrician

[Robint]

Hi Sparks
I was asked by a neighbour recently how his young son can become a trade electrician (as opposed to an Industrial Electrician). I am retired for many years from design work so I offered to look into it. I came up thru the Apprenticeship/National Certificate/tech college route many many years ago. From what I remember from when I last looked at the subject +20 years ago there was something called Stage 3 CnG exam that domestic electricians needed to be accredited as a Competent Person. The Governemnt meddled with the whole process and dumped the responsibily onto Councils' Building control Part, We all know what a mess that became - lets not go theere.

Im sure the CnG level 3 which takes 4 years + employment experience and sit an assessment AM2 +NVQ3 (same as CnG3?)

I live in N Kent and trawled around the web trying to find colleges that supported electrician training - and came up against a complete dead end - nothing available.

I was amazed, no way to get proper training to become and electrician. There was something called " Building Service" course, but looking into the subjects (very coy releasing info BTW), it seemed actual Electro technology subjects were very thinly covered (would they even know ohms law or basic ac theory concepts - no laboratory work).

So I concluded I was so far removed from today and whats available for young persons I came here to ask you practising Trade guys what the scheme is today. Please dont say "get an Apprenticeship" I looked in my area already and there are no legitimate employment opportunities like that (yes some Mickey Mouse contractors who only treat young persons as cheap gophers).
Would a young person have to travel up to the Industrial North? I expect the competition is fierce with few slots available. I am confused with all the glossy web pages but I cant nail a training path.
Any comments/advice please?

BTW I deliberately avoided the Industrial Electrician route as that definitely needs an apprenticeship training and for what used to be called a JIB level 4 card which I believe is a separate issue/route

 

[binky]

Probably your best bet is a large employer like Tesco, or some social housing scheme. Apprenticeships are as broken as everything else in this country. I would certainly be looking at industrial employers, probably the best training you can get.

I'm a bit surprised local technical colleges aren't offering courses, but that probably reflects lack of demand. There used to be some incentives to taking on an apprentice, which the government did away with some years ago. As most electrical conractors are small, there is little incentive to train the next generation of electricians, so most just don't bother any more. I had apprentices, 6 in total, before deciding I couldn't be bothered anymore.

 

[poni]

I agree with binky, your best bet is a big employer, they have to pay a levy if they don't have apprentices, this one of the reasons I think it a broken system,

 

[Robint]

I found this post on here - what a condemnation of our political overlords - creating a desperate shortage of skilled electrical tradesmen all for banging the drum for the University route. Read this it says all I tried to OP https://electricianforum.co.uk/threads/degree-to-electrician-an-update.54990/

I remember the 14th Ed of the IEE regs I went on a Management summary course ( I was a design engineer at the time) I remember thinking how the Regs were written to emphasize the legal liability concerns and were difficult for a tradesman to understand let alone interpret. It came to pass that several companion guide publications came out that put the Regs into tradesman's English https://shop.theiet.org/product-category/electrical-regulations. An Exam as part of CnG level 3 for Bs7671 - the Regs.

Now there again IMHO the IEE way back went thru some hidden crisis and became the IET (no doubt in response to its elitist prewar attitude to technician and trade grades - given the tremendous surge of electronics and digital progress - the IEE didnt even do Valve Radios as they had their own Charter).

So now we have the confusion between the valuable qualities needed for a Trade electrician focussing on installation and inspection but the IET is burdening him with aspects of electrical design that IMHO are a different ball game (certainly and understanding of design process is needed but the Electrician shouldn't be expected to perform a design engineer's function - which is what seems to be the case). I daresay that Government meddling minister - a former ship's waiter and shop steward had no idea of the effect of dumping Electrical safety issue on to Local Authorities' Building Control (as Part P). The result was that Joe Public might continue with DIY and using cowboys as domestic work was largely deemed non notifiable. Only landlords are obliged to have a Competent Person inspect their properties' electrical installations and have a yearly sign off

I recall some 20 years ago that the Gov has a big push to get working electrician to qualify as a Competent person. Said Training cost these guys several thousands ££££'s in course for BS7671. Only to find that the Gov diluted the whole concept and left these good guys hanging out to dry - as the market found ways to avoid employing them. I knew of tradesmen who were forced into minimum wage work as a result of undercutting by cowboys (still exists today AFAIK)

Compare this to the system in the US/Canada and OZ (Electrical installation must be to "Code" and signed off by an official EE inspector or your insurance will become invalidated. I believe the EU have something similar? Any help here?

Maybe members here remember that fiasco more clearly

 

[binky]

I agree with binky, your best bet is a big employer, they have to pay a levy if they don't have apprentices, this one of the reasons I think it a broken system,

Big employers will also be more likely to offer a diverse portfolio of work, as well as having proper employment terms and conditions.

 

[Andy™]

Only landlords are obliged to have a Competent Person inspect their properties' electrical installations and have a yearly sign off

not even that, its 5 years or change of occupancy

 

[Radiotowers]

Hi Sparks
I was asked by a neighbour recently how his young son can become a trade electrician (as opposed to an Industrial Electrician). I am retired for many years from design work so I offered to look into it. I came up thru the Apprenticeship/National Certificate/tech college route many many years ago. From what I remember from when I last looked at the subject +20 years ago there was something called Stage 3 CnG exam that domestic electricians needed to be accredited as a Competent Person. The Governemnt meddled with the whole process and dumped the responsibily onto Councils' Building control Part, We all know what a mess that became - lets not go theere.

Im sure the CnG level 3 which takes 4 years + employment experience and sit an assessment AM2 +NVQ3 (same as CnG3?)

I live in N Kent and trawled around the web trying to find colleges that supported electrician training - and came up against a complete dead end - nothing available.

I was amazed, no way to get proper training to become and electrician. There was something called " Building Service" course, but looking into the subjects (very coy releasing info BTW), it seemed actual Electro technology subjects were very thinly covered (would they even know ohms law or basic ac theory concepts - no laboratory work).

So I concluded I was so far removed from today and whats available for young persons I came here to ask you practising Trade guys what the scheme is today. Please dont say "get an Apprenticeship" I looked in my area already and there are no legitimate employment opportunities like that (yes some Mickey Mouse contractors who only treat young persons as cheap gophers).
Would a young person have to travel up to the Industrial North? I expect the competition is fierce with few slots available. I am confused with all the glossy web pages but I cant nail a training path.
Any comments/advice please?

BTW I deliberately avoided the Industrial Electrician route as that definitely needs an apprenticeship training and for what used to be called a JIB level 4 card which I believe is a separate issue/route

Hi Robint,
As I ended up with my local network operator ( DNO) dont forget looking for a crafts apprenticeship with the local network company.
The industry is going through a lot of change as the Maggie Thatcher days are bearing fruit with the 20 year gap of no apprentices.
Most of the DNO,s are seeing the staff ( like me ) now retiring with no one to take their place.
Check out their web site for job opportunities.

 

[binky]

Compare this to the system in the US/Canada and OZ (Electrical installation must be to "Code" and signed off by an official EE inspector or your insurance will become invalidated. I believe the EU have something similar? Any help here?

It sure how most of Europe works,but I'm France, you can't advertise services unless you are registered and can demonstrate competence. Here in the UK, a hairdresser can paint sparky on the side of a van and go trade. Likewise I could be a hairdresser tomorrow...

 

[Robint]

not even that, its 5 years or change of occupancy

I stand corrected Sir.
IMHO it was bad enough before Part, with jobbing Leccies doing house bashing. Old preware houses with their lead sheathed rubber insulated cables - nasty or worse VIR rubber plus those cluster of huge cast iron rewireable fuse boxes - what a mess. Then along came the integrated plastic dis boards with MCBs (some very poor quality stuff around even from well known builders merchants (nasty little screws that strip and dont clamp wire enough etc). DIY ignorant homeowners quickly found they could bodge replacement work themselves (but often didnt understand ring mains - but neither does the rest of the world). So it was a free for all wild west bonanza for the jobbers. The Gov recognised the problem but incompetent politicos didnt understand issues and consequences and dumped the whole sorry mess on local authority Building Control (who had no background in this area so quickly had to subcontract it all out to WHO - ex cowboys turned inspectors (not all but Poachers turned Gamekeepers - you get the idea).
No legitimate Electrical Contractor with premises/yard/warehouse/office/vehicles etc could hope to compete with the One man jobbers - so that didnt fly at all, and the Gov and its advisers dreamed up the Competent Persons concept - floated it and walked away.
So house owners went to the cowboy jobbers as before. Even these Inspection certificates can be fake (as I was told by a man in a pub nudge nudge). The Gov made a lot of domestic work exempt from notification with guidelines blurred.

IMHO as far electrical safety is concerned we are worse off than before as we have new devices RCDs aka RCCBs which Average Joe doesnt understand, nor the limitations of MCBs - hence the number of fires in these plastic Dis Boards and so on. So its even more of a rats' nest than before.

There is even an initiative floating around to install the £££ Arc fault detection devices AFDDs
Quote
BS 7671:2018+A2:2022 Regulation 421.1.7 now requires arc fault detection devices (AFDDs) conforming to BS EN 62606 to be provided for single-phase AC circuits supplying socket-outlets with a rating not exceeding 32 A in the following installations:

● Higher Risk Residential Buildings (HRRB)

● Houses in Multiple Occupation (HMO)

● Purpose-built student accommodation

● Care homes
Unquote

Will existing Consumer units have space for this? New updated Unit needed Madam ££££

 

[binky]

AFDDs shown not to work on ring mains....

In fairness as pointed out by our esteemed deceased memember Sidewinder, their introduction was a response to the Grenfell disaster. Personally, I think Grenfell was always going to happen due to a lack of inspection and self certification of materials. Whatever happened to BS and the kite mark - oh yeah, 'light touch regulation'.

 

[Andy™]

AFDDs shown not to work on ring mains....

In fairness as pointed out by our esteemed deceased memember Sidewinder, their introduction was a response to the Grenfell disaster. Personally, I think Grenfell was always going to happen due to a lack of inspection and self certification of materials. Whatever happened to BS and the kite mark - oh yeah, 'light touch regulation'.

don't forget grenfell wasn't caused by an issue on the fixed wiring either, it was an appliance. so even if it was fully compliant with BS7671, it would probably have still happened anyway

 

[Robint]

AFDDs shown not to work on ring mains....

In fairness as pointed out by our esteemed deceased memember Sidewinder, their introduction was a response to the Grenfell disaster. Personally, I think Grenfell was always going to happen due to a lack of inspection and self certification of materials. Whatever happened to BS and the kite mark - oh yeah, 'light touch regulation'.

To add to your feelings of disgust, you maybe aware of the existance of fake CE marks. This is the EU self certification system, much plagiarised by Cheap Charlie. They claim their mark stands for "China Export" https://www.researchgate.net/publication/337819031_Product_Safety_CE_alert_CE_fake_signs_from_China
FWIW
Here is a site well known leccie man https://www.youtube.com/@bigclivedotcom he has spent 10 years opening up all manner of electrical stuff from the PRC. Some of his vids are pure spoof and humourous but dont discount the gear he has highlighted as lethal and totally contravening any safety regs
eg Outdoor lighting in aluminium casing with earth lead not connectable etc he has many many examples of this nature. It flies through our customs and floods our market with counterfeit electrical goods with grossly inadequate power ratings.

 

[Robint]

don't forget grenfell wasn't caused by an issue on the fixed wiring either, it was an appliance. so even if it was fully compliant with BS7671, it would probably have still happened anyway

Hmm thanx for that, I found
Quote
Three inches of damaged wire discovered in one of the flat's bedrooms 27 days after the tragedy probably came from the compressor relay compartment, the inquiry heard.

Electrical fire expert Dr John Duncan Glover highlighted the "poor crimp connection" which failed to keep the wires tightly gripped as they should have been.

He told the inquiry spaces seen in CT scans showed wires had not been "properly crimped".
This the subject of a separate beef of mine within a Solar Power Forum.
Crimp connections started out as a credible and fast alternative to a soldered joint. Lot of mechanical pressure and cold welding involved (remember wire wrapping? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wire_wrap).
Then Cheap Charlie got hold of crimping and produced all manner of copy fakes totally flooding the market (try sourcing a full spec ring terminal).
I have some dozen or so different crimping tools all claiming to produce good results (even with the ubiquitous spades and bullet connectors used in the motor trade). Over the years they proved unreliable and I resorted to soldering.

Improper crimping is far more disastrous in Solar power because of the high currents involved 50-200A - but thats another story.


I think you will find that the fault in the starter relay of the fridge freezer would have produced a fluctuating current signal with an arc signature so this AFDD should pick up that HF signal. You can hear this if you coil some wire round a conductor and attach to headphones - not rocket science. Try for yourselves

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Hi Sparks
I was asked by a neighbour recently how his young son can become a trade electrician (as opposed to an Industrial Electrician). I am retired for many years from design work so I offered to look into it.....................

I was amazed, no way to get proper training to become and electrician.......................

So I concluded I was so far removed from today and whats available for young persons I came here to ask you practising Trade guys what the scheme is today. Please dont say "get an Apprenticeship"...............
Any comments/advice please?

Hello Robint.. welcome to the forum...

Just to quickly summarise...
Most of the observations/comments/points/thoughts.. etc.. you added on your various posts have already been discussed numerous times since Part-P was introduced 2005/6ish..

Plus the rise of the "5-Week wonders", (Who typically bought a rip-off course advertised to make you an electrician earning 75k+, with our on-line training') however... theoretically the "5-week wonder" path has now been severely reduced/closed down ??

But some of the fundamental problems to your initial question...
how a young person can become a trade electrician IMHO include the following:-

[1] DIY electrical work is still legally permitted in England.

[2] A DIY person can still do Part-P notifiable work and arrange for it to be tested & passed by their LABC.

[3] Any small business, (sole trader), considering taking on apprentice/unskilled staff to train, has many hoops and hurdles to jump, plus too much responsibility and liability to offset against any financial gain that this new worker may bring to to business!!!

[4] A lot of young people nowadays are reluctant to put in a full days work that may involve putting the phone down and getting your hands dirty doing manual labour!!!

[5] I don't think there is anything preventing anyone from purchasing training and sitting any City & Guilds exam???.. Although minimum competence may be recommended for most courses.. If someone is willing to purchase the training and the exam I am sure they will be happy to let you sit it.

[6] Electrical theory and understanding of current wiring regulation qualifications are relatively easy to obtain.....
(many C&G exams are open-book, multi choice...)

But practical 'hands-on' experience doing various installation techniques, terminating, and testing of alterations/additions..
are probably only available from larger companies!?

Hence...
You are amazed, there is no way to get proper training to become and electrician!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[binky]

Wire wrapping, not seen that since my apprentice days building Seadart missles.

 

[apprentice87]

Hi Sparks
I was asked by a neighbour recently how his young son can become a trade electrician (as opposed to an Industrial Electrician). I am retired for many years from design work so I offered to look into it. I came up thru the Apprenticeship/National Certificate/tech college route many many years ago. From what I remember from when I last looked at the subject +20 years ago there was something called Stage 3 CnG exam that domestic electricians needed to be accredited as a Competent Person. The Governemnt meddled with the whole process and dumped the responsibily onto Councils' Building control Part, We all know what a mess that became - lets not go theere.

Im sure the CnG level 3 which takes 4 years + employment experience and sit an assessment AM2 +NVQ3 (same as CnG3?)

I live in N Kent and trawled around the web trying to find colleges that supported electrician training - and came up against a complete dead end - nothing available.

I was amazed, no way to get proper training to become and electrician. There was something called " Building Service" course, but looking into the subjects (very coy releasing info BTW), it seemed actual Electro technology subjects were very thinly covered (would they even know ohms law or basic ac theory concepts - no laboratory work).

So I concluded I was so far removed from today and whats available for young persons I came here to ask you practising Trade guys what the scheme is today. Please dont say "get an Apprenticeship" I looked in my area already and there are no legitimate employment opportunities like that (yes some Mickey Mouse contractors who only treat young persons as cheap gophers).
Would a young person have to travel up to the Industrial North? I expect the competition is fierce with few slots available. I am confused with all the glossy web pages but I cant nail a training path.
Any comments/advice please?

BTW I deliberately avoided the Industrial Electrician route as that definitely needs an apprenticeship training and for what used to be called a JIB level 4 card which I believe is a separate issue/route

Hi There, Even after you get this sorted, stick around. You write really well and i am SURE that i am not the only one that would like to see you stick around on the forum...

john..

 

[Robint]

Well Gentlemen Leccies
Ive got a far bigger SHOCK for you - in short SOLAR POWER

I have advanced elec eng schooling so I know a bit about basics and enough to know that the more you learn, the more you realise how little you know.
Most pracitising Leccies dont have to worry about that, very rarely do any cals, cos all the design work is already done. Everyone takes it for granted all wrapped up in the impenetrable 18th Ed yada yada.

Then along comes dc Supplies - which Leccies rarely encounter in the industrial world unless in specific industries - traction, electrolysis, telephone exchanges, UPS, cars dont count - you get the point?
But Solar panels have risen belatedly (way behind USA/Canada OZ). We dont do Ofgridding much in UK. Some anoraks get retentive with RVs but we hate caravan and travellers.
Then along came Battery storage with the advent of affordable Lithium batteries (in just the last 2 years). DIYers are now dabbling with dc microgrids , albeit at SELV level <50Vdc BUT now carrying large amounts of current 50-250Adc. Most people (inc myself a year ago) dont appreciate what a dangerous beast they are dealing with. I have spent last year studying the installation practice of these microgrid dc systems. Whilst the chance of electric shock is very minimal ( except see below), the possibilities for catastrophic property destroying mistakes is highly possible. People dont realise a dc arc, once struck doesnt extinguish so long as the power source remains. Thats means that a simple circuit breaker might fail by causing an continuous fire. There are plenty of examples on YT.

Worse still, some solar panel arrays can be strung together in series to produce ca 400Vdc - LETHAL. Should be banned from use by Joe Public.

(in a marine environment with hands wetted by seawater you can get a shock off a 24V battery - and a diver in the sea can be crippled by as little as 8Vdc head to toe))

The geriatric, elitist IET has only just woken up to this new tech with their Ammendment 2 which is a very feeble document compared to NEC Code in the US, and OZ has their own special edition dealing specifically with Solar Power installations, which must be inspected and signed off by a State inspector fully trained in the dc arts. The OZ Gov has a plan to have every roof in OZ covered in solar panels and feeding spare power to the national grid - backed up by generous grants BTW.

So where do our Sole Trader Leccies stand in all this?

Over to you guys comments pls

OBTW

Would you believe, that a long standing KB resource for ELV dc installations practice in the Boaty crowd in the states. https://www.cruisersforum.com/ and th all powerful https://abycinc.org/recreational-boaters/. The AYBC has a set of electrical standards equivalent to our 18th ed (but made for builders and inspectors. You boat has to have an official inspection signed off or your insurance is invalid. They have new section E13 specifically addressing Lithium Storage Battery systems. A fire afloat is an existential threat. Its very enilightening and there's lots of derived kit, switches connectors, fuses breaker etc all beefed up for marine duty. You can buy on EB.

I could rabbit on about all this for hours but it wont be of interest to most unless you are faced with a micro grid (non notifiable AWS)

 

[binky]

solar, simple enough but dangerous to boot! For many years I avoided installing batterries - I did, and still do, regard those as a potential bomb in a domestic property, so I'm not keen on installing except in garages or other external building, possible a loft, but I have other reasons for avoiding that location.

Took me quite a while to get used to working with permanenty live DC, ie solar panels, but fortunetely the gear is well designed to minimise risk of sticking a finger where it doesn't belong. I did once pull a MC4 on an inverter without turning off the DC. The connector got a bit stuck which allowed a lovely 1" blue flame to propagate, being used to AC I was not concerned initially until I realised the flame wasn't going out. I still don't like fault finding solar, especially for DC leakage. With all the framework being metal, and the panels having metal frames, there's a high chance of 400+V to be present on the metal parts, and I've yet to see a reliable wy of protecting myself from this.

 

[Robint]

solar, simple enough but dangerous to boot! For many years I avoided installing batterries - I did, and still do, regard those as a potential bomb in a domestic property, so I'm not keen on installing except in garages or other external building, possible a loft, but I have other reasons for avoiding that location.

Took me quite a while to get used to working with permanenty live DC, ie solar panels, but fortunetely the gear is well designed to minimise risk of sticking a finger where it doesn't belong. I did once pull a MC4 on an inverter without turning off the DC. The connector got a bit stuck which allowed a lovely 1" blue flame to propagate, being used to AC I was not concerned initially until I realised the flame wasn't going out. I still don't like fault finding solar, especially for DC leakage. With all the framework being metal, and the panels having metal frames, there's a high chance of 400+V to be present on the metal parts, and I've yet to see a reliable wy of protecting myself from this.

At last someone here sees my point

Can you imagine the UK Solar industry and the installers they might get. I banged on about not training young persons to become accredited Electricians - where does anyone get training in dc systems and microgrid dc distribution wirng etc.?

Here's some bed time reading from the boaty crowd who take their dc wiring very seriously https://safeafloat.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/I-Electrical-Systems-Final-4-14.pdf

Furthermore there is a legendary guy Andy whos been going for 10 years 700+vids in depth user experience on all aspects of domestic solar installations. This will scare the hell out of most tradesmen when they see whats involved and how badly it can go wrong. OZ is 20 years ahead of us.
https://www.youtube.com/@OffGridGarageAustralia

 

[binky]

I've seen and repaired many UK solar installers work... They did try to shut out cowboys via the MCS system, but demand meant cowboys still got around that, and some companies just employed gangs of idiots to bash systems into your roof.

There are training courses for solar which cover most aspects of good installation, but mostly we worked with manufacturers instructions, particularly in regard to roof mounts and frames. We also discovered how many **** roofers there are . My team were never encouraged to rush a job, a well installed system should be good for 40 odd years. In fact the roof covering should fail before the panels and frame.

I've watched a few of the Off grid Andy videos. He spends an awful lot of time building his own battery. A few people in here have done that, personally I would rather buy off the shelf gear. There's a level of expertise I just don't have despite a background in Aerospace control gear, so whilst you can cobble a system together yourself, software compatibility is going to be an issue, plus you would expect a factory built battery to have a level of quality control inspection and testing that I doubt self builders would know how to do. ' it works' is not quality control .