Is Part Pee a laugh?

[sellers]

Its a nice way of thinking android but being the bearer of bad news for some customers isn't nice. They may think you are trying to get more work out of them thinking you are the cowboy which is horrible.

Everybody tries to save money but it costs them in the long run. Stick to your guns GH tell the truth and what you have to do and if they do get the builder in the end then its their own stupidity.

And yes part p is a complete waste of time, money and effort.

 

[ProDave]

That's a truly shocking install. Shouldn't this be in the black museum forum?

Re the inaccessible CU, there really is only one solution, remove the kitchen wall units and do a proper CU replacement, updating bonding etc.

If the owners, or their builders, then choose to put the wall unit back (they probably will) that's their problem. Put the new CU as high as possible so they will at least be able to get at it to reset any trips, even if it will still be impossible to actually work on if the units go back.

Most kitchen wall units just hang on brackets or a rail at the top, so unless they have gone mad with mastic, it should be easy to remove them without damage so they can go back again.

I would definitely call the DNO and report what obviously looks like an unsafe supply and see what they propose. I guess technically you need not be concerned about the supply arrangements to other properties or the rest of the street, just the supply to the property you are working on.

Are you sure ALL that external wiring is on the DNO side? some of it looks too small to me and might be someone's domestic wiring on the outside of the building?

Regarding why this was not picked up on the sale. I would be advising the house owner to write to the solicitor that handled the purchase for them. Usually solicitors make it their business to check all aspects of the property and often spend ages investigating what look like trivial matters, so the question has to be asked why was this not checked out? why were certificates not requested, if they were not available did they bring this to the attention of the purchaser etc?

If it can be proven the solicitor was negligent, don't they have insurance to cover this? could a claim be made to cover the costs of rectifying the faults that should have been found by the solicitor?

 

[Badger]

regarding part pee being a complete waste of time and money popped into our local di store to pick up some 3 amp fuses to change a customers alarm panel as i hadent got any left, anyway cutting a long story short, guy inf ront of me in the que was purchasing 2 twin MK sockets, 2 MK Twin pattresses, 1 roll of 10metres of 1.5 Twin and earth and a pack of connector blocks rated at 20 amps what do you reckon hell be doing this weekend ???? i can guess, (by the way it was thursday wen i popped in ) i reckon hell be extending the ring main via a single cable to the first socket using connector blocks in the back of the socket, and then extending another socket supply from the ring main (ie spurring) off another socket somewhere else in the house, using you guessed it 1.5 and whys he going to use 1.5 because it says its rated at 17 amps, therefore 13 amps in no where near the rating according to joe public

bad day explode bad day explode headbang :yellow card

 

[green-hornet]

@ Prodave, yes mate the outside supply is all the DNO's work, the cable does look very small.

Whilst at the house I was unable to get to the Fuse Board to do any tests but did a Zs test on the sockets up and down the highest reading I got was 0.67 so there is an earth!

I am going to call the DNO and see what they say on monday

 

[batty]

That's a truly shocking install. Shouldn't this be in the black museum forum?Re the inaccessible CU, there really is only one solution, remove the kitchen wall units and do a proper CU replacement, updating bonding etc.

If the owners, or their builders, then choose to put the wall unit back (they probably will) that's their problem. Put the new CU as high as possible so they will at least be able to get at it to reset any trips, even if it will still be impossible to actually work on if the units go back.

Most kitchen wall units just hang on brackets or a rail at the top, so unless they have gone mad with mastic, it should be easy to remove them without damage so they can go back again.

I would definitely call the DNO and report what obviously looks like an unsafe supply and see what they propose. I guess technically you need not be concerned about the supply arrangements to other properties or the rest of the street, just the supply to the property you are working on.

Are you sure ALL that external wiring is on the DNO side? some of it looks too small to me and might be someone's domestic wiring on the outside of the building?

Regarding why this was not picked up on the sale. I would be advising the house owner to write to the solicitor that handled the purchase for them. Usually solicitors make it their business to check all aspects of the property and often spend ages investigating what look like trivial matters, so the question has to be asked why was this not checked out? why were certificates not requested, if they were not available did they bring this to the attention of the purchaser etc?

If it can be proven the solicitor was negligent, don't they have insurance to cover this? could a claim be made to cover the costs of rectifying the faults that should have been found by the solicitor?

You'll be lucky making any claim back of solicitors there will be something in there small print that will make them not liable. My wife had a friend who brought a property diy cu change all the lighting was on 45amp mcb's and kitchen ring was on 16 amp breaker so when they plugged a lot of stuff in breaker would trip. I am just glad they did not have a short circuit on lighting because they would have probably had a fire. Now they could never get anything back from the people who did the survey they just said they were not electricians.

 

[PC Electrics]

I agree with PD. The (new) owners should go back to their solicitor who handled the purchase for advice.

It was my understanding that any vendor must make a declaration about whether any works have been carried out which require either planning or notification (a friend of mine had more grief than you can imagine because he'd had a small window replaced and not had it notified). So, presumably, the vendors of this property must have declared that they had not had any such works carried out.

the new owners should ask their solicitor for clarification of whether this was the case. If so, the vendors made a false declaration. Whether this is sufficient for any action will be down to a solicitor to judge.

And what of the installers? Surely they have carried out illegal work by modifying circuits in a kitchen and/or bathroom and not notifying. In which case they deserve to be reported to Trading Standards and/or LABC.

I sympathise with the view that "nothing will happen anyway", but someone once said that for evil to triumph all it takes is for good men to do nothing. If we all just shrug our shoulders and let it go, then the crooks get away with it. So it should be reported. the more stuff like this that's reported, the more the Authorities will be under pressure to do something (like more resources to action complaints and bring prosecutions).

 

[ProDave]

I look forward to seeing this property featured on "homes from hell 2010"

I fully agree with PC electrics. Somebody, somewhere made a false declaration that the property had not had any works that "require building control notification" Clearly the electrics should have been notified. Whether that false declaration was intentional, or simply because they did not realise it required BC approval does not matter.

So the purchasers solicitor should be asked to investigate. If it turns out to be a false declaration on the part of the vendor, then I am sure there must be some form or compensation available, perhaps from the vendors solicitors insurance?

Anyway it should be pursued. Let us know the outcome please.

The poor state of the DNO's wiring is a separate matter. That's outside the control of the homeowner, but should be reported to the DNO as unsafe and the DNO should improve the supply.

 

[steptoe]

I look forward to seeing this property featured on "homes from hell 2010"I fully agree with PC electrics. Somebody, somewhere made a false declaration that the property had not had any works that "require building control notification" Clearly the electrics should have been notified. Whether that false declaration was intentional, or simply because they did not realise it required BC approval does not matter.

So the purchasers solicitor should be asked to investigate. If it turns out to be a false declaration on the part of the vendor, then I am sure there must be some form or compensation available, perhaps from the vendors solicitors insurance?

Anyway it should be pursued. Let us know the outcome please.

The poor state of the DNO's wiring is a separate matter. That's outside the control of the homeowner, but should be reported to the DNO as unsafe and the DNO should improve the supply.

+1

it wouldnt be the first time I have been asked to go and "do a certificate" because we are selling the house,

not a problem,

I do a PIR and make sure I have got my

 

[sellers]

Even a simple thing like making PIR's on domestic the law would make it a lot safer. Say every 5 years, and change of owner.

 

[steptoe]

why do people have NO issue with having the gasman charge them

 

[Badger]

i know what you are saying steptoe, its crazy knowing a corgi man can charge 100 ish to look at a couple of items, and make sure they are safe, and then the electrician gets flamed for asking for 150 but spending half a day on site testing a lot of different stuff.

 

[exbdc]

Isn't it a question of public perception?

Everybody had heard of CORGI but whether they now know it has become Gas Safe is a matter of debate.

To my mind the problem has been caused by there being various providers, who all promote their own self-interests, rather than a single regulatory body. Had that been the case then I personally think that the public would have understood far better the ramifications of Part P & LABC regulations.

This is my own industry perspective as I am not a sparks but have worked within the industry for many years.

 

[green-hornet]

Just a quick update, I met up with an engineer from the DNO today and whilst the supply is "old" and "could" be replaced whilst it is working they prefer to leave it as it is.

The supply is TN-S and the earthing is via an outer lead sheath.

If the client is not happy with the supply as it is, they will replace it with a new underground supply but they would have to pay for this.

So my conclusion is whilst it looks old and is decrepid, as long as it works its fine.

 

[Badger]

Just a quick update, I met up with an engineer from the DNO today and whilst the supply is "old" and "could" be replaced whilst it is working they prefer to leave it as it is.The supply is TN-S and the earthing is via an outer lead sheath.

If the client is not happy with the supply as it is, they will replace it with a new underground supply but they would have to pay for this.

So my conclusion is whilst it looks old and is decrepid, as long as it works its fine.

headbang :| great so while use professional electrical contractors go round doing a top job, the dno are able to get away with murder!

 

[kme]

Thanks for the update GH. As said - it is soooooooo annoying to have this dual standard between us & the plumbits.

Oh:

Put the new CU as high as possible so they will at least be able to get at it to reset any trips, even if it will still be impossible to actually work on if the units go back.

But it doesn`t comply. Accessible?

KME

 

[ProDave]

But it doesn`t comply. Accessible?

KME

In an ideal world you would make it accessible, certainly on a new build.

But back to the real world. This consumer unit is already too high up. There are already kitchen units blocking access. So what do you do?

If money were no object, pay to relocate the incoming supply, meter and CU somewhere completely different so the customer could have the kitchen they want, AND the CU would be fully accessible.

I though not.

So in the real word, you have to make the best of a bad job, hence I suggested remove the kitchen wall units, replace the CU and put it right up tight against the ceiling. So when, inevitably, the wall cupboards are put back, you can at least see it, and get to it to reset the trips.

NOT perfect, but the best of a bad job.

If you are going to go down the "must be accessible" route, then you would be advising the customer (who is already upset about the state of things) that an expensive CU and meter move is required and there is no other option.

Of course if you took that stance, you wouldn't get the job, another "cheaper" sparky would get the job (to keep the CU where it is)

 

[kme]

Agreed mate - I was just in a "devils advocate" sort of mood there........

 

[ProDave]

So my conclusion is whilst it looks old and is decrepid, as long as it works its fine.

To be honest, that's much what I expected.

headbang :| great so while use professional electrical contractors go round doing a top job, the dno are able to get away with murder!

But the DNO are no different. When you encounter an old 15th edition install with a rewireable fuse box, no CPC on lighting and no RCD, you are NOT obliged to change it.

We are only obliged to make the new or modified parts comply with current regs, so in that respect we are no different to the stance the DNO is taking here.

 

[green-hornet]

Thanks for all the replies, the client did not even want a new CU, but I told her why she should have one.

She was very happy that I have asked the DNO about the supply its all about peace of mind.

I have decided to leave the CU where it is, I have told her it is not ideal but at least with the new MCB's and RCD's it will be easier for her to reset after any fault.

I always try to give more than one option, and I hope that the way I explain everything it helps the clients to make a joint decision which will always be a compromise.

 

[Evans Electric]

Part P is a joke and the jokes on us .

Yesterday I went to a posh house on the edge of Brum (80mtr garden ,swimming pool etc) A builder is working there . They wanted an existing 2.5 X 3core SWA extended to reach a garage , small F/Bd on the end, connections in side the house for a feed, all done flush, connections ready for some pathway lights, and an RCD socket fitted outside. Spent 2 hours there listening to what they wanted. Phoned back with price ,