Kitchen Spotlights

[Gozoman]

I'm fitting new spotlights to my kitchen ceiling. At present there are two single bulbs. A double switch at the kitchen door controls both lights and there is also a single switch at the back door for one of the lights. At present there are three cables coming into the ceiling rose connected into a two, three, three connector block. The first two connectors in the block contain one red wire from the household supply and the brown wire from the present light fitting. The middle three connectors contain three red wires, and the last three connectors contain two black wires and the blue wire from the present light fitting.

My new spot bar has a block of three single connectors for the neutral, earth and switched live and a fourth seperate block for loop termination if necessary. I have photos but can't find any way of attaching them. Can someone tell me the correct wiring procedure for the new lights as there doesn't seem to be enough room to connect everything up.

 

[Blue Duck]

Take a picture then turn off the power to the lights take them apart put them back together how they were using connector blocks or wago's attach new light to the ceiling connect wires. Use some 3 core flex from the connector blocks/wago's to the new light if the terminals on the new fitting are a bit stingie. Put some tape on the connectors and try conceal them within the fitting not in the ceiling void.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

My new spot bar has a block of three single connectors for the neutral, earth and switched live and a fourth seperate block for loop termination if necessary. I have photos but can't find any way of attaching them. Can someone tell me the correct wiring procedure for the new lights as there doesn't seem to be enough room to connect everything up.

Welcome to the forum.....

In addition to what the duck said above.....

What you describe sounds to me like one of the fundamental laws of light fitting manufacture, which is based around the principal of these assumptions...

1/ Light fittings will never have to be installed in the real world (e.g. only on shop displays NOT peoples homes!!)

2/ Why spend money including a connector block large enough for the average electrician or Home DIY fitter to actually get all of the supply and loop conductors correctly terminated when a really small one just big enough for a single wire shop display will do!

3/ The above two points assume the manufacture has gone to the effort of including any form of connector at all...rather than just leaving 3 bare conductors sticking out!

The same principal is applied to fixing screw (if supplied)..  they are always to small to be of nay use at all!!!

so in summary:-

99.99999999%  of all connectors supplied with light fittings are either too small or crap quality so you cannot safely terminate your wires without using your own better quality / larger connectors!

opcorn

 

[Steve3948]

Spec so very true

 

[Blue Duck]

Lol@specs too true, designed to the millionth of a penny! On some the little metal tab for the earth to connect onto the connector is sometimes too small for a 10a block always recommend that customer always uses somewhere like John lewis but they all end up argos or ikea

 

[kerching]

Ah the B & Q paradox.....( did i ever tell you about their pissh poor after sales service and honouring of warranties?...NO! )

So.....you go to , lets call B & Q 'the pinny farm", the pinny farm has a good range BUT they are all visually ok AND at the same time carp.

You pay ....'not a lot of momey' to the pinny monster for your fitting.

Take it home, unpack it. It is in 127 separate bits that you have to put together with a spanner made from old cheshire cheese rinds,

You then find that none of your wires fit in the space allocated by the design scammers

You either botch it or take it back

Pinny monster reluctantly gives you a refund

You have wasted hours in time and £s in fuel

BUT it did not cost a lot in the first place

Rant finishes

I refuse to fit customer bought fittings. Spec if they are from a "shed"

Call me intolerant

 

[ProDave]

The same principal is applied to fixing screw (if supplied)..  they are always to small to be of nay use at all!!!

I usually find the opposite.

They are too long, and the screw heads are made of lead, so by the time the screw is driven half way home, the head has given up and rounded.

I very rarely use the supplied screws as I doubt 1% of them are actually any good for the job.

 

[NozSpark]

Lol, yes....

All screws supplied (in a little bag) with any fitting go straight in the bin

 

[Andy™]

Lol, yes....

All screws supplied (in a little bag) with any fitting go straight in the bin

same here

then you get the odd customer 'why are there spare bits with the light?'

 

[Gozoman]

Actually I didn't go to Argos for the spot bars, I bought them from Screwfix. I buy most of my stuff there as the trade seem to use it and I figure if it's good enough for them......They seem well enough made and had GU10 bulbs which I wanted as I will probably swap out for LED's as they fail if not sooner. I had also reached the conclusion that the block fitted to the new fittings was a joke and had considered replacing it. Nice to hear that the professionals seem to do this as a matter of course. I had actually considered butchering the present ceiling fittings with the dremel and fitting them into the new fittings with epoxy adhesive and then reconnecting the wires exactly as they are at present. If that sounds like a stupid idea don't laugh! I have plently of time to play around with ideas as the new kitchen doesn't do in for another two weeks and if I don't feel I can do it safely I'll leave it for the spark when he's connecting everything else up.

 

[Blue Duck]

Not trying to say that it was an argos light although SF can be just as tight and as for the trade going there... but thats not really the point.

Am glad you didn't go with dremel butcher option as most of us have probably seen a few very close to burning the house down. Once they are attacked ceiling roses tend to become flimsy and useless.

Generally with light fittings I end up replacing everything that I can as it makes my job easier and the fitting should last longer.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Actually I didn't go to Argos for the spot bars, I bought them from Screwfix. I buy most of my stuff there as the trade seem to use it and I figure if it's good enough for them......

Screwfix do have some reasonable stuff but they also have some crap stuff...

I wouldn't recommend you assume all stuff that Screwfix sell is bought by "the trade"...

a lot of it is positively avoided due to poor quality....

Don't forget Screwfix & B&Q are all part of Kingfisher..

But Screwfix do have a lot of small counter outlets that are open 7-days a week often later than a lot of other outlets...

So where convenience is a factor screwfix have a good sales edge.

Some of the trade may well just be buying boxes of screws & other such fixings....   ??

Or some of those purchasing light fittings wearing work trousers and boots, may well be just recent career change short course trained new startups who haven't got any trade accounts with other wholesalers..?

At the end of the day it is Who has manufactured the accessory...  NOT where it is brought from that normally dictates how good/bad or ugly it is!!

Also you certainly don't want to go about butchering any fittings, as if it fails within 12 months you will have probably invalidated the warranty..

Guinness

 

[Blue Duck]

You must live in a nice area specs my local SF is full of people that look like pirate's. :|

 

[kerching]

I use sfix and trade point for convenience....mainly for fixings and odds and sods

I do not think i have ever bought anything electrical from there apart from a couple of thier MK garage boards....the price was good AND they were perfect for what i wanted

Just using the wholesalers

 

[Steve3948]

I find that SF can beat most wholesalers on Vent Axia prices, in fact I was in a well known wholesalers a month ago and they had a Vent Axia rep in there, he asked if I purchased Vent Axia, I said yes but not from here, I will get them to give you a good price he said, so he priced a VA100XT, later that day I checked the price against SF and even with the reps top offer SF still cheaper.

The mind boggles.

 

[kme]

So........back to the original poster.

The ceiling rose wiring sounds normal - you haven`t mentioned the earth wires in a seperate terminal - are there any there ( green; green & yellow, or just plain bare copper?

If there are not any of these earth wires in evidence - you have some rather old lighting wiring in your premises; which usually means the power cabling is also old - metal light fittings are not suitable for connecting to this type of wiring. Solution is to get plastic lights; or have the lighting rewired. 

If, however, there ARE earth wires, and you didn`t mention it - then, to use your terminology. The two ( red, brown) are the "live" from the switch to the light. The three ( red x 3) is the "loop"; and the last three ( black x 2, blue) is the neutral. 

IF there is a new kitchen going in anyway, and the spark will be on site doing the necessary works for that - surely its better to let him do it? Not decrying your capabilities, but he has ( should have) the ability to confirm that the wiring is correct as presented; and that the various readings required are within their necessary parameters for safety.........???

Be careful. As someone else said: step 1 is to turn the power off. 

 

[kerching]

^^^^^^^^^what he said above.........PLUS just because there is an earth wire there ( some body who has been doing the job for decades less than me will,be along shortly to correct my terminology).... It does not mean that it is connected correctly, if indeed it is connected at all.

It was common practice in the 60s just to cut the earth wire off

Just be careful

 

[Gozoman]

I think I have solved the problem without having to even remove the wires from the present rose fitting. The new spot bar comes with a fitting which screws to the ceiling to attach the spot bar to. I can use the two screws which are holding the present fitting to secure this to the ceiling below the present plate fitting. There is a slight difference in the diameter of the plate and the internal diameter of the new fitting but from what I can see it is no more than the screw threads on the present plate. So the plan is to turn off the power at the board and then double check with a phase tester just to make sure. Loosen the two screws holding the plate to the ceiling and use the dremmel to take the thread off all round. That should reduce the outside diameter enough for the new fittiung to go over it. Take the two screws out and put the new holder behind the plate and reinsert the screws and tighten up. Then I'll remove the silly little wiring block from inside the new fitting and connect the blue and brown wires to the plate on the ceiling where the old light flex was attached to. Last but not least run an earth wire from the fitting to the block on the plate and secure the new light to the ceiling. Don't think I've missed anything.

 

[NozSpark]

I've seen that done loads of times.... Personally I wouldn't do it that way as the ceiling rose plate will take up a reasonable amount of the limited space within the new fitting which will make it easier for you to trap or crush a wire.

So long as the earth wire is connected then it should be ok..

Remember, while the earth wires don't make anything work, they are the most important wires in the installation

 

[ProDave]

That will work if you can make it fit. It's unusual in a modern fitting to find enough room to do that.