Landscape lighting advice/solution

[Boyd761]

Hello, I’ve had my garden landscaped and had some pathway led lights fitted in to sleepers. Now this wasn’t a cheap install when I say cheap I mean “cheap” to me as I know gardens cost a fair bit , this was 13k and they said they’d take care of the lights and I said I’d like to paint the sleepers as per my wife’s request and I’d need to pop them out. Well Sunday I tried exactly that and to my surprise they just broke at the led circuit board due to no movement on the wire located under the tiles. I’ve discussed this with the landscaper and it’s wired to a sealed box and that’s how they have done it in the past but I’m baffled at this as if they ever needed replaced you just couldn’t get to the wiring without taking up the tiles, is this normal practice? I’ve asked what else can be done and they say that’s how it is but surely this can’t be true as it’s a serviceable part ???? Any advice on how this can be installed better , I’ve searched and searched but I have no experience when it comes to this any help would be hugely appreciated.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Well Sunday I tried exactly that and to my surprise they just broke at the led circuit board due to no movement on the wire located under the tiles. I’ve discussed this with the landscaper and it’s wired to a sealed box and that’s how they have done it in the past but I’m baffled at this as if they ever needed replaced you just couldn’t get to the wiring without taking up the tiles, is this normal practice? I’ve asked what else can be done and they say that’s how it is but surely this can’t be true as it’s a serviceable part ???? Any advice on how this can be installed better , I’ve searched and searched but I have no experience when it comes to this any help would be hugely appreciated.

Hello Boyd, welcome to the forum...

Unfortunately from my experience far too many Garden landscapers, Kitchen fitters, Bathroom fitters, Conservatory fitters, Loft converters etc.. etc..

have Zero consideration for future maintenance, when it comes to accessibility of joints and/or replacement of failed components..

Are those 230v or 12v, (24v) fittings?
i.e. is these / are there also some transformers concealed somewhere as well?

In my opinion you are quite right in your assumptions regarding access to serviceable parts..
Plus there is actually a wiring regulation that states that joints in cables should be accessible to allow operation, inspection, maintenance & access should not be significantly impaired.

{ Reg 513.1 page 131 of current edition of BS7671.. and this is not a new regulation as in earlier editions it was No 513-01-01... }

Basically your 'gardeners' may be able to do nice landscaping to warrant their charges..
But.. I suspect they could be lacking some competence when it comes to the electrical work!!

Its not uncommon to find people who are very good at designing and installing things that look very neat and tidy... But are an absolute sod to try and maintain if you need to replace a part.!
(Seen it a few times with car headlamps... damn near impossible to get your hand in to replace a blown lightbulb, even though the lights look very neat from the outside!).

Anyone who has ever worked in a maintenance capacity, will be very aware of correct labelling and identification of all cables and joints.. And ease of access to work on the joints!!

It's hard to suggest what is the best solution..?
BUT I fear you may end up picking up the tab for poor workmanship done by your Not-Cheap landscapers!

I probably may have tried to organise some arrangement with flexible conduit from the light fitting position(s) back to an accessible connection point where flexes from light fitting(s) could all be connected to the source of supply..... Taking into consideration that some external lights come with a pre-connected length of flex.

I wish you well in resolving your problem.

 

[Boyd761]

Hello Boyd, welcome to the forum...

Unfortunately from my experience far too many Garden landscapers, Kitchen fitters, Bathroom fitters, Conservatory fitters, Loft converters etc.. etc..

have Zero consideration for future maintenance, when it comes to accessibility of joints and/or replacement of failed components..

Are those 230v or 12v, (24v) fittings?
i.e. is these / are there also some transformers concealed somewhere as well?

In my opinion you are quite right in your assumptions regarding access to serviceable parts..
Plus there is actually a wiring regulation that states that joints in cables should be accessible to allow operation, inspection, maintenance & access should not be significantly impaired.

{ Reg 513.1 page 131 of current edition of BS7671.. and this is not a new regulation as in earlier editions it was No 513-01-01... }

Basically your 'gardeners' may be able to do nice landscaping to warrant their charges..
But.. I suspect they could be lacking some competence when it comes to the electrical work!!

Its not uncommon to find people who are very good at designing and installing things that look very neat and tidy... But are an absolute sod to try and maintain if you need to replace a part.!
(Seen it a few times with car headlamps... damn near impossible to get your hand in to replace a blown lightbulb, even though the lights look very neat from the outside!).

Anyone who has ever worked in a maintenance capacity, will be very aware of correct labelling and identification of all cables and joints.. And ease of access to work on the joints!!

It's hard to suggest what is the best solution..?
BUT I fear you may end up picking up the tab for poor workmanship done by your Not-Cheap landscapers!

I probably may have tried to organise some arrangement with flexible conduit from the light fitting position(s) back to an accessible connection point where flexes from light fitting(s) could all be connected to the source of supply..... Taking into consideration that some external lights come with a pre-connected length of flex.

I wish you well in resolving your problem.

Thank you , I’m grateful for the time you took and your advice. The lights are 240v and come with a 250mm tail as they said that’s why there isn’t any give and they can’t extend it, despite the landscaper stating I would be able to remove the lights. Seeing as its an electrician they arranged and works were carried out when I was at work it’s just hard to keep an eye on them and what I’ve found a vast majority see that as the customer sticking their nose in and it offends them.

Rather disappointed at this as my wife and I tried to do it but the book by using a reputable company from check a trade that had good reviews and was a large investment which now looks to be drawn out and possibly a fight to get it sorted.

Again I appreciate your advice and thank you.

Regards

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Thank you , I’m grateful for the time you took and your advice. The lights are 240v and come with a 250mm tail as they said that’s why there isn’t any give and they can’t extend it, despite the landscaper stating I would be able to remove the lights. Seeing as its an electrician they arranged and works were carried out when I was at work it’s just hard to keep an eye on them and what I’ve found a vast majority see that as the customer sticking their nose in and it offends them.

Rather disappointed at this as my wife and I tried to do it but the book by using a reputable company from check a trade that had good reviews and was a large investment which now looks to be drawn out and possibly a fight to get it sorted.

Again I appreciate your advice and thank you.

Regards

Unfortunately Check-A-trade and other similar search platforms are just advertising sites that the contractors who are listed there have to pay subscriptions to keep their name listed..
(and on some sites, the contractors also have to pay a nominal fee to obtain the prospective customers enquiry details?)

So there can be conflict of interests where because the Check-A-Trade type site earns its key revenue from the contractors its is advertising.. It has no major incentive to cancel a poorly performing contractor and lose their revenue income.

Plus the contactor has to increase their charges to the customer to cover the proportion of money the 'tradesperson search site' is taking out of the pot! {not to mention the costs of all those TV adverts etc!!}

I may be wrong, but if you are a good reliable tradesperson with happy customers, I think you will get a steady flow of word-of-mouth recommendations and enquiries without having to pay a third party a share of your earnings from each job?

It sounds like your situation has the added complication that you never directly employed the electrician.. so whoever this third party subcontractor was, they had no incentive to plan design or install their work for future maintenance, as they knew they will probably never be coming back?

My only other advice would be where possible try and employee individual trades directly yourself, so you are agreeing the work to be done, costs, payment terms, future support maintenance etc with the person who will be responsible if the project goes pear-shaped, and who knows how something was originally installed and thus how to take it out again if it needs replacing.

 

[Sharpend]

You could threaten a poor review but I suspect it would get lost and not posted?

Had they drilled the holes a little deeper they could have left a coil of flex behind the light for removing lights.

 

[Richard-the-Ninth]

Just thought I would mention one of the "hates" about checkatrade is they do not publish bad reviews, it is not in their interests to allow a bad review, as said before, checkatrade is paid for by anyone who wants to advertise. It says on their website that bad reviews are accepted but the trades person has 7 days to rectify / resolve the complaint, so the bad reviews are known to never get published.

 

[binky]

A place I do maintenance work on had a similar issue with lights set into the brick pavers. They had managed to leave sand all over the seals, so not a surprise when they filled up with water. Cables used from under the fittings were too short, making repairs impossible, and I still can't work out how they even managed to fit them in the first place. Eventually I had to replace the lot which involved lifting the block pavers and recabling. I also introduced drainage under the lights to prevent water entering the bases from underneat.

 

[Richard-the-Ninth]

I still can't work out how they even managed to fit them in the first place.

My guess would be they were "installed" as the wall was built.

Eventually I had to replace the lot which involved lifting the block pavers and recabling.

I suspect that is going to be the case for boyd761 Again only a guess, but my money would go with "They drilled a small hole all the way through, then a larger hole for the fitting, poked the cable through and pulled it tight" I would also guess the cables are buried direct in the soil.

My only hope is the landscaping company don't try the "Well you broke them, so not our problem" approach, but in a way that might be better, get someone in who knows what they are doing and run it all in conduit, and have easily accessible junctions.

Although the lights have twin flex, I wonder what the lamp voltage is.

 

[binky]

This is the lightning array. I never did find where the cables actually went, white PVC so not even suitable for burying in the ground, As you can see if you don't fit drainage under ground lights, they fill up with water from underneath.

 

[Fleeting]

No matter how they are installed I can guarantee most won't be working in a few years time.

 

[Andy™]

bit late now, but i usually use a bit of pipe behind the lights. bring the cable in from the end closest to the light, you can then push / pull the slack into / from the tube to get the light in/out

 

[Andy™]

Rather disappointed at this as my wife and I tried to do it but the book by using a reputable company from check a trade that had good reviews and was a large investment

of course they had good reviews. as others have said, bad reviews would be bad for check a trade etc so they don't get published

 

[binky]

No matter how they are installed I can guarantee most won't be working in a few years time.

The above lasted 6 months before they started causing issues. Most ground lights I've seen fail quite quickly due to mositure ingress from poor installation. You can normally see condensation on the inside of the glass.

 

[Murdoch]

Its the people who want "drive" lights, then wonder why a couple of years later they start failing .........

I refuse to fit such lights and have done for quite a few years

 

[binky]

Its the people who want "drive" lights, then wonder why a couple of years later they start failing .........

I refuse to fit such lights and have done for quite a few years

I fitted these 8 years ago, without any problems since bar council staff managed to break one. It's fair to say they are expensive Philips lights, not cheap and nasty gear, and we dug soakaways under every light to create drainage. So it's not that these things can't last, it's more about how they are fitted. No good fitting in ground prone to puddling of course.

 

[Murdoch]

I fitted these 8 years ago, without any problems since bar council staff managed to break one. It's fair to say they are expensive Philips lights, not cheap and nasty gear, and we dug soakaways under every light to create drainage. So it's not that these things can't last, it's more about how they are fitted. No good fitting in ground prone to pudding of course.

Pudding

 

[Boyd761]

Thanks for the input all, we I’m getting an other electrician to take a look so I can have another opinion on the matter , the landscapers have already said because I pulled the lights out I have to pay for them! So when they do finally come back to take a look and discuss it I’m asking their electrician to show me how to pull on without it breaking the loom. These are the lights in question

 

[Sharpend]

Take some pics of how tight the cables are when installed so you have your evidence should you need it later. After all you don’t want to pay for the same thing twice.

 

[Murdoch]

I doubt very much that the original electrician will be able to pull one out ...............

So when that happens, you can request they install them again properly ..............

 

[Boyd761]

I doubt very much that the original electrician will be able to pull one out ...............

So when that happens, you can request they install them again properly ..............

This is what I’m hoping but like few have said , needs someone who knows what they are doing so would I want their electrician to reinstall them???? Problem I have is having no experience with this I wouldn’t know if it’s been done correctly until this sort of situation happens