live bath problem

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for the record the main switch was an rcd although this didn't trip at any point.

Live -neutral low resistance won't trip RCD, will propogate short allowing current to flow - burning?? Serioulsy suggest you check out burning smell as most likely clue to source of issues. Also, whilst plastic may be fed to bath, check how long plastic pipe is before contacting metal. There are guidelines on length of plastic / reisitance increase on NIC website somewhere, but unlikely to be an issue if more than 1 metre (that's from memory)

 
thanks all for the responses... ....... it appears to be newly refurbed (by the owner i think who also dd a bit of the electrical work from what i can gather) and pretty much everything is inaccessable/out of sight..
ohhhhh! sharp intake of breath me thinks! :eek: :O:( :|

look forward to further reports of findings...

best of luck m8! :)

 
Forgive me if I have offended you "Superwol" But herein lie my reasons for doubt.

i used to lurk around screwfix but have got a bit of a headscratcher so thought i'd come ask the talent for advice

By "the talent" You sound like a DIY'er fishing.

the circuit at fault appears to be the lighting circuit for that part of the flat (isolating it removes the problem)

So, you located the fault, or have you?

there was an underfloor heating controller, pump for the jaczi bath thing all held together with block and tape

At this point you should have been asking, "Who the F*ck installed that?"

so i disconnected the lot and the problem disappeared.

S'funny, I thought you said it was the lighting circuit?

i re-connected the underfloor heating at which point a nasty burning plastic smell came from under the bath so i swiftly removed it again but the fault did not return.....

Now, this might seem a daft question, but when you re-connected this item, did you connect it back as it was?

The reason I ask this is because there is no mention of "a nasty burning smell" until you re-connected said item?

but here lies my problem. i'm not happy with the fault just disappearing like that with no real explanation as to what caused it in the first place. i just don't feel happy walking away without knowing whether or not i have actually solved the problem.

This is the final and main reason for my somewhat short (no pun intended) reply earlier.

NO Electrician worth his salt would simply walk away after the symptoms you have described above, I for one most certainly could/would NEVER walk away from a job after burning has been smelled, I would definitely try to ascertain as to why there was this smell, by doing all of the checks described in earlier posts, PLUS a full visual of everything you have mentioned.

These are my reasons for doubting your competence and or skills for doing this kind of work.

 
Forgive me if I have offended you "Superwol" But herein lie my reasons for doubt. i used to lurk around screwfix but have got a bit of a headscratcher so thought i'd come ask the talent for advice

By "the talent" You sound like a DIY'er fishing.

think what you like, i just have respect for the knowledge base on this forum. apologies for showing it

the circuit at fault appears to be the lighting circuit for that part of the flat (isolating it removes the problem)

So, you located the fault, or have you?

it would certainly appear that at this stage that is the circuit at fault. i'm not going to give you an emphatic 'yes' but that is what i curently believe.

there was an underfloor heating controller, pump for the jaczi bath thing all held together with block and tape

At this point you should have been asking, "Who the F*ck installed that?"

obviously but as there are new tenants in the property and the landlord is in oz i can't answer that right now

so i disconnected the lot and the problem disappeared.

S'funny, I thought you said it was the lighting circuit?

all powered off the lighting circuit. give me a little credit will you

i re-connected the underfloor heating at which point a nasty burning plastic smell came from under the bath so i swiftly removed it again but the fault did not return.....

Now, this might seem a daft question, but when you re-connected this item, did you connect it back as it was?

The reason I ask this is because there is no mention of "a nasty burning smell" until you re-connected said item?

yes i did. my initial thoughts on the smell was that possibly the ufh had not been bedded in properly and had burnt itself out possibly making contact with pipework in the process although it has to be said the smell arose pretty quickly after powering up again so i have my doubts.

but here lies my problem. i'm not happy with the fault just disappearing like that with no real explanation as to what caused it in the first place. i just don't feel happy walking away without knowing whether or not i have actually solved the problem.

This is the final and main reason for my somewhat short (no pun intended) reply earlier.

NO Electrician worth his salt would simply walk away after the symptoms you have described above, I for one most certainly could/would NEVER walk away from a job after burning has been smelled, I would definitely try to ascertain as to why there was this smell, by doing all of the checks described in earlier posts, PLUS a full visual of everything you have mentioned.

what's your point? i haven't walked away. read my comment above. it seems to be mostly in english:D nothing was left in an unsafe condition and i was working there till 9pm last night to try and sort it out.

as it happens i am on my way back there right now (just checked in for a little of that superior knowledge). so provided i can gain access i will let you know my findings later

These are my reasons for doubting your competence and or skills for doing this kind of work.

fair enough. you are entitled to an opinion. i dont really want to get into a situation where i'm having to defend myself in this way ( and i can't honestly believe i am doing so) but i'm capable of the majority of fault finding and testing, this is just the first time i've come across this situation and wanted a little friendly advice. i'm also not afraid to ask when i find there are gaps in my knowledge. hats off to you if you've never had to ask...

i've had very little else on my mind all day bar this problem and i am more than aware that it's potentially fatal and i hope you'll be pleased to hear that

so with that said lets all be friends eh?

lots of love
sw

 
"for the record yes i am a qualified electricain. experience doesn't come with the certificate though which is where i find it helpful to ask other people. helps with the learning you know."

Indeed, Welcome to the foum Superwol. That is what we are here for (amongst other things) Sometimes the most simplest of things can be overlooked - even by sparks that have been in the trade for years. Wisecracks are for use on other forums. :D

 
It is only an opinion and I was not asking you to defend yourself, so sorry, yes lets all be friends by all means, again I did not mean to offend.

I know this much, I know that I am learning things all the time too, so no I am not lucky enough to know it all and anyone who says they do in this trade should give up.

Superwol again sorry if I offended I did not mean to be so rude.

 
It is only an opinion and I was not asking you to defend yourself, so sorry, yes lets all be friends by all means, again I did not mean to offend.I know this much, I know that I am learning things all the time too, so no I am not lucky enough to know it all and anyone who says they do in this trade should give up.

Superwol again sorry if I offended I did not mean to be so rude.
not a problem mate. i'm not that easily offended but it's easy to get your back up and be defensive when you first arrive on these forums. and i can completely understand where you were coming from

anyhow, i couldn't gain access to the flat so nothing new to post in that respect. 3 tenants and not a phone between them. hey ho. off for a pint in the sun instead

i'll be back to unashamedly ask for any advice as it progresses

cheers for now

 
Evenin` all.

Right. Here are my thoughts (for what they`re worth). In no particular order.

1) UFH & jacuzzi off lighting cct? That`s an issue for starters.

2) the "warmup" ufh; if it`s the resistive wire type, is sheathed in an (earthed?) sleeve. If it`s the flat ribbon, there SHOULD be a metallic (earthed) grid, similar to chicken wire, above it. However, in neither case does it get hot enough to cause a burning smell.

3) The Jacuzzi could be more of a concern, however. Especially bearing in mind the following:

As has been stated, the water inside a plastic pipe conducts; and can provide a path. HOWEVER in this case we are talking about the waste pipe. It doesn`t have water in it under normal conditions, unless the bath is being emptied!

If the Jacuzzi has a problem, in and of itself, this could possibly cause the problem. I don`t believe the UFH, which, in the case of warmup, is designed to be installed by diy joes, could be the root cause of your problem. Check the jacuzzi, and report back here so we can pick the bones out of your findings.

HTH

KME

 
Evenin` all.Right. Here are my thoughts (for what they`re worth). In no particular order.

1) UFH & jacuzzi off lighting cct? That`s an issue for starters.

yup, and you should have seen the way they had done it as well. floating choc block, control unit lying on the floor with exposed terminals. not a sign of local isolation either. but suffice to say nothing is connected to it any longer.

2) the "warmup" ufh; if it`s the resistive wire type, is sheathed in an (earthed?) sleeve. If it`s the flat ribbon, there SHOULD be a metallic (earthed) grid, similar to chicken wire, above it. However, in neither case does it get hot enough to cause a burning smell.

not sure on the exact type as it's under the tiles. all i can tell you is the cable that runs from the control to the element itself is a flat 3core stranded cable with the cpc on one side instead of the center. probably doesn't help much. from my experience with other makes, unless it is completely embedded in the adhesive/laytex it burns itself out. thought that might be the case but in retrospect it's pretty unlikely. either way it's disconnected now

3) The Jacuzzi could be more of a concern, however. Especially bearing in mind the following:

As has been stated, the water inside a plastic pipe conducts; and can provide a path. HOWEVER in this case we are talking about the waste pipe. It doesn`t have water in it under normal conditions, unless the bath is being emptied!

the waste pipe and the old iron heating system. unless they have been bonded below the floor is there any other way they could be in contact? it's a safe bet they don't pass each other anywhere given the layout of the room.

If the Jacuzzi has a problem, in and of itself, this could possibly cause the problem. I don`t believe the UFH, which, in the case of warmup, is designed to be installed by diy joes, could be the root cause of your problem. Check the jacuzzi, and report back here so we can pick the bones out of your findings.

the jacuzzi was basically just a pump to force air through vents in the bath. it's not actually connected to the water supply in any way. that was also disconnected and i can't really see it being the root of the problem.

HTH

KME
another minor oddity occurred while i was there. my volt stick (and before you all start they do have a place in the world) was pretty much glowing the second i opened my toolbox and remained to do so when it was held in the center of the room. never done it before. i know they're not reliable but i still think it's a bit strange. something an nothing probably

anyhow, thanks for the input.

quick question though. if the problem has indeed 'gone away' as it appears to have at the moment - how long do you go on for trying to prove it? food for thought

 
Oh I dont know, they have their place, I use the Fluke volt alert and find it very useful.

 
Hello superwol

I had a problem on a job that i was called out to. The owner a retired architect said he was gettting a shock of the shower door and other metal parts in a shower room. I tested the metal on the shower door down to earth there was 220 volts. After a lot of hunting around i found an unused socket under the shower and as the sealant had gone on the shower water was tracking down the wall and making the showert cubicle live. The house was protected by a voltage operated trip, not the most reliable protectors. As the shower room was originally a bedroom the socket had not been removed when the room was converted. Unbelievable what some people will do. I don't no if this might be of help for finding your problem.

Batty

 
It is only an opinion and I was not asking you to defend yourself, so sorry, yes lets all be friends by all means, again I did not mean to offend.I know this much, I know that I am learning things all the time too, so no I am not lucky enough to know it all and anyone who says they do in this trade should give up.

Superwol again sorry if I offended I did not mean to be so rude.
anyway,

I should probably retire anytime soon then. :^O :^O:^O

 
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