Lockable fan isolators

[Sidewinder]

Hi all,

We have an issue with a drying/changing room at a client site.

The users are turning the extract fans off.

The cabin is suffering from the damp.

I seem to remember that someone has fitted fan isolation that is lockable on?

Any suggestions for manufacturers please?

Our local wholesaler only has Click which are only lockable, off.

Don't want a totally industrial solution, because it would look out of place.

 

[Hefferl]

https://talk.electricianforum.co.uk/topic/31799-seeking-lockable-fan-isolators/

Any help?

 

[Tony S]

Why do you need an isolator?

 

[Evans Electric]

Local isolation Tony .   

I only used to fit a 3A  spur in line but was picked up on annual assessment some years ago,  as the light goes off as well the fan  :C .   It suddemly became a H&S issue  . There was no arguing with that particular guy who gave the impression he would string out the assessment until he damn well found something to put as a non conformance thingy .

Sidey :  I can only think of a DP key switch , leaving the Neutral wired through.     If you link it out and fit a blank lid you find the fan blades will be jammed . 

Remote fan in loft  ??

 

[ProDave]

We have had this discussion before.

BS7671 does not require a fan isolator.

There is some industrial legislation that requires a "motor" to have local isolation. Now you can understand that so the guy changing a drive belt on a big motor does not lose his arm when the motor starts up automatically half way through the belt change.

It is my belief that someone has applied this industrial rule, to a poxy domestic fan motor, that is unlikely to be anything more than "ouch that hurt a bit" even if you stuck your finger in the blades while running.

Electrically isolating it for maintenance is no different to say a loop at light, ceiling rose, you isolate at the consumer unit.

I don't fit fan isolators in rental properties because there is a long history of the tenant turning the fan off because it is noisy and then complaining about damp and mould.

I still await someone telling me exactly what legislation people are applying when they fit a fan isolator to a domestic fan. Nobody could tell me that last time we had this discussion, so will someone try this time?

Until they do, I regard domestic fan isolators as optional.

 

[Evans Electric]

Dave , all I remember is the 3 pole switches suddenly appearing everywhere  and guys saying  local isolation is now required for cleaning etc.  .  It was the 16th wasn't it  ?  :C      After the NICy man issued a non- conformance I just shove them in anyway  .     On a lot of our new work I found people switch them off because of the "dreadful row " in the night .

I see them as a "Local isolation "  requirement.      

 

[Sidewinder]

There is already an isolator there, and the duty holder would like to keep them in place.

No loft space to put them in, I was just hoping for something that was not two separate fishtail switches, as I would rather have them on one switch if possible.

We just want to stop the users turning the fans off, the client has to heat the room, and, draw air out of it because of the amount of drying that goes on, so it costs them a fortune to run!

 

[ProDave]

Dave , all I remember is the 3 pole switches suddenly appearing everywhere  and guys saying  local isolation is now required for cleaning etc.  .  It was the 16th wasn't it  ?  :C      After the NICy man issued a non- conformance I just shove them in anyway  .     On a lot of our new work I found people switch them off because of the "dreadful row " in the night .

I see them as a "Local isolation "  requirement.      

You have hit the nail on the head.

16th Edition. 476-02-03 "Every motor circuit shall be provided with an isolating device or devices that disconnect the motor and all equipment......"

17th Edition the equivalent "isolation" section 537.2, I can see no mention of isolation for motors.

so unless the requirement is somewhere else in the 17th and I have not found it, then the requirement for fan isolators was dropped when the 17th was introduced.

 

[Evans Electric]

Interesting  but I think it just comes under "Local Isolation " .  So any fixed equipment has it ....in a house its cookers , shower, fixed heater , immersion htr,  central heating , washing m/c ,  etc.   including the fans.   

It is also suggested in some parts that a fan has it's own 3A fuse  so that it doesn't take out the lighting ....that can be quite interesting  when its linked to the light circuit .        I constantly find fans with switched spurs that do not isolate the switchwire from the light .    At best they switch the Live & the Switched trigger  and the Neutral remains connected ....at worst the fan is live when the light is on . 

 

[Sidewinder]

Guys, we ain't installing the fans, they are already there.

The duty holder wants to keep a means of isolation.

We need to prevent the idiot users turning them off, it's affecting the fan heaters in the building, the showers, the IR on the building, and the building itself, mould, mildew etc. and it stinks!

They have to dry their kit perhaps two changes a day, and shower in there, most days as they get stinking dirty and wet when it rains, and it rains a lot in Wales year round!

It's just that in the summer the rain is warmer...

To be fair to the duty holder (i.e. site manager) he wants us to get the heating and the ventilation sorted so they guys have somewhere warm & dry, he is just struggling to educate them to leave the fans running, so, we simply need a way to stop them switching them off and retain a means of isolation at the location, without it looking like something out of Tony's foundry!

 

[ProDave]

Interesting  but I think it just comes under "Local Isolation " .  So any fixed equipment has it ....in a house its cookers , shower, fixed heater , immersion htr,  central heating , washing m/c ,  etc.   including the fans.   

It is also suggested in some parts that a fan has it's own 3A fuse  so that it doesn't take out the lighting ....that can be quite interesting  when its linked to the light circuit .        I constantly find fans with switched spurs that do not isolate the switchwire from the light .    At best they switch the Live & the Switched trigger  and the Neutral remains connected ....at worst the fan is live when the light is on . 

So why does a light fitting not have a local isolator?  Yes it does, it's called a light switch. So why can the same light switch not also be the isolator for the fan? then if you must have local isolation of the permanent L to a timer fan, then an unswitched FCU and pull the fuse out for isolation? S tenant can't then turn it off. But why have local isolation of permanent L to a timer fan when you don't have local isolation to the L loop through for a ceiling rose?

I am now convinced it was 16th that introduced the fan isolator requirement and we have just carried on, not really checking if it is still needed.

 

[ProDave]

Is it a timer fan or just an on off fan?

Here's a DP fish key switch http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Electrical/d190/White+Wiring+Accessories/sd2633/Key+Switch/p36770

 

[Sidewinder]

There are, I am told by my subbie 2 lives & a N.

So, I am guessing these are the timer fans from the shower room.

If they were just normal fans we could put a normal 2pole key switch on from stock, & he wouldn't have asked me about it.

 

[ProDave]

If it's on all the time, little point in being a timer fan is it? rewire as an on off fan, and use the DP fish tail switch.

 

[Sidewinder]

Never mind, don't worry about it.

I don't believe that the shower room fans are on all the time, it's these we are struggling for an isolator on, the others are fine we can use a 2 pole key switch.

Whatever changes we make have to be agreed by the Duty Holder, and I don't know exactly the story as I haven't been to site to look at this job yet.

I have had another forumite there on my behalf.

All I know is that the duty holder wants to retain an isolator, and the clowns are turning them off, so we are looking for a way of preventing them turning them off.

I believe that there are other fans that run continuously in the drying rooms, but, not in the shower room.

 

[ProDave]

Okay getting into equipment modifying territory, but remove the timer module from the fan and place in a suitable enclosure. Then you have a timer fan, with just L and N between the timer and the fan, with a 2 pole isolator fish key.

 

[Evans Electric]

If they are 3 pole isolators , how about linking them out and fitting a blank lid bearing the legend  " Isolate elsewhere" "    i.e  :  the dist. board.

ard. 

If they a dragging all the heat out they'll have to go with the heat recirc things ,  not fitted any myself. 

 

[ProDave]

Yes a total refit with an mvhr system might be a good idea.

 

[rapparee]

http://www.screwfix.com/p/mk-3-pole-lockable-fan-isolator-switch-metal-clad/74585?kpid=74585&cm_mmc=Google-_-Product%20Listing%20Ads-_-Sales%20Tracking-_-sales%20tracking%20url&gclid=Cj0KEQjwtu3GBRDY6ZLY1erL44EBEiQAAKIcvqWbh2gLd1X5ype3yqsbhZOAq2VrLe5pGRy3phOilB8aAhda8P8HAQ&gclsrc=aw.ds&dclid=CMaB5bSp_NICFeWJ7Qod6DoBZg 

This thread has gone on for long enough.

 

[Sidewinder]

A mod on the level of MVHR will never happen.

I don't think that a steel shipping container lends itself well to MVHR either.

The duty holder wants to retain local isolation.

Not sure if we have the wall space and the access to mount extra bits, and rip cables out/fit new easily without going surface.

A cheap neat solution would be a key operated 3 pole isolator, quick & easy to change very little in the way of modification.

Cost has to be considered, they will pay, but they won't stretch to MVHR I suspect, and the rest we will have to run past them cost wise.

http://www.screwfix.com/p/mk-3-pole-lockable-fan-isolator-switch-metal-clad/74585?kpid=74585&cm_mmc=Google-_-Product%20Listing%20Ads-_-Sales%20Tracking-_-sales%20tracking%20url&gclid=Cj0KEQjwtu3GBRDY6ZLY1erL44EBEiQAAKIcvqWbh2gLd1X5ype3yqsbhZOAq2VrLe5pGRy3phOilB8aAhda8P8HAQ&gclsrc=aw.ds&dclid=CMaB5bSp_NICFeWJ7Qod6DoBZg 

This thread has gone on for long enough.

Lockable off only, not on, so no use.