London Fire

[phil d]

just woke up to the news of a major fire in London, it looks really bad from the pictures, one thing I noticed was the ALP's are nowhere near tall enough to put water to a decent height. Given the increasing height of buildings in the capital maybe it's time they looked at buying taller fire fighting equipment

No doubt there are fatalities sadly, and being burned to death has to be one of the worst ways to die. My sympathies to all who lived there. .

 

[ProDave]

It is looking like the polystyrene based external wall insulation fitted a year ago caught fire....

 

[Lurch]

just woke up to the news of a major fire in London, it looks really bad from the pictures, one thing I noticed was the ALP's are nowhere near tall enough to put water to a decent height. Given the increasing height of buildings in the capital maybe it's time they looked at buying taller fire fighting equipment

Don't tall buildings have dry risers for this sort of thing, and/or sprinklers? How high were you thinking, there's still a point at which they will still be too short.

 

[Andy™]

Don't tall buildings have dry risers for this sort of thing, and/or sprinklers? How high were you thinking, there's still a point at which they will still be too short.

wet risers for that height, but they are purely for firemen inside to connect their hose to instead of running a long hose  from ground to where they are at. they wouldnt have helped much in this case

makes you wonder who's bright idea it was to fit flammable materials to the outside of the building. id expect each flat to be its own fire compartment so anyone inside would have been safe for a reasonable time from a fire internally, but i doubt the windows would be fire rated, which would be why so many were killed / injured

 

[Blue Duck]

I could see the smoke from Alexandra  palace this morning.

A lot of these blocks don't have fire suppression  systems, its too costly to install due to the age of the buildings and the presence of asbestos.

Listening to horrific stories on the news, it appears that as a result of a previous tower block fire in 2009 they wanted to make fire suppression systems mandatory but somebody called an early election before the law was passed.

X(

 

[binky]

have a look at this:-

https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2016/11/20/kctmo-playing-with-fire/

 

[M107]

id expect each flat to be its own fire compartment

They would have been ...... but over the years fire breaks will have been disrupted during works & not reinstated, external cladding fitted & worse metal framed windows would have been replaced with UPVC.

So remember if you remove a fire barrier to run cables.......put it back afterwards

 

[rapparee]

I was talking to a fella today, who, worked on similar buildings in Dublin and he said that no way should the fire have been able to get from one floor to the next. He was saying that a middle floor should be allowed to literally burn to a cinder but floors above and below should have been untouched. 

I wonder what the initial ignition was. It will be a sorry affair for whoever is responsible.

 

[M107]

No matter what you hear ignition source is not yet confirmed.

 

[binky]

i get the impression that the fire spread upwards from the outside, ie via the cladding?

just seen news report from similar tower neaby, seems they don't have communal area fire protection?

 

[Blue Duck]

I don't recall that many blocks with a communal fire alarm, though a lot are being refurbed at the moment.

One I do recall was an abandoned block other than two tennants which I thought was odd.

I heard some speculation  that suggested during the upgrade of the communal heating some of the fire barriers were not replaced properly.

Anyone doing fire alarms is going to be busy soon! 

 

[Andy™]

i get the impression that the fire spread upwards from the outside, ie via the cladding?

just seen news report from similar tower neaby, seems they don't have communal area fire protection?

looks as though its started inside an apartment then spread by outside to everywhere else. the stairways should have been protected from the apartments so anyone going into the hallway / stairs should have been safe. since that was compromised id go with someone leaving their door open on the way out allowing it to spread into the corridor.

 

[Evans Electric]

I heard it started on the fourth floor  , I also heard there is only one stairway  plus lifts.

And I wasn't too happy about their advice that in case of fire remain in your flat .

I'd have thought  ..in case of fire get out fast!!.

However at this point I'm sure our sympathies go out to those who have lost family & friends in there.

Edit :-   I must say I was impressed with the response from local folk there ,  offering a bed , donating clothing , water at the local shop , just heard a West Indian Cabbie interviewed ,  he,s there free with his cab , ferrying stuff, taking people to wherever , running errands etc. for anyone who needs it . 

 

[Andy™]

And I wasn't too happy about their advice that in case of fire remain in your flat .

its generally good advice and very common. properly designed and constructed then if the fire is in a fireproof box, and youre in another fireproof box, then you should be safe. if everyone evacuates then you have a mass of people going one way whilst firefighters are trying to get the other way to the fire making things much worse. in this case though, everyone evacuating would have been the best option

 

[Evans Electric]

Yeah but what is it ...an hour  with the fire door at most .

Saying all this however , is it proven that the fire spread up the external cladding ?  

 

[Lurch]

Yeah but what is it ...an hour  with the fire door at most .

By which time either the fire will have been dealt with or you will have been evacuated in a controlled manner.

 

[Andy™]

Yeah but what is it ...an hour  with the fire door at most .

Saying all this however , is it proven that the fire spread up the external cladding ?  

by which time the firefighters will be on site and will have evacuated you if you are at risk, and the fire would hopefully be out or almost out

looking at the photos / video, i think its safe to say the fire spread via the cladding

 

[binky]

this is what I don't get Lurch, given a communal fire alarm, there should be no reason why someone on the top floor wouldn't know there is an issue allowing time to evacuate safely. 1 fella on the 7th floor reckons he was alerted by the commotion outside and was lucky to escape. Anyway we can speculate as much as we like, there's bound to be a big enquiry and then the truth maybe known.

In the meantime I can only offer my heart felt sympathy for those who have lost loved ones, and a big hurray for those who have chipped in to help the survivors. The genoristy of the British Public never fails to restore my faith in humanity.

A big well done to the emergency services as well.

 

[Lurch]

this is what I don't get Lurch, given a communal fire alarm, there should be no reason why someone on the top floor wouldn't know there is an issue allowing time to evacuate safely.

The problem is, people don't follow instructions and file out calmly, they run round panicking and screaming and don't follow instructions properly.

When I say evacuate safely, I mean they are evacuated by someone who isn't running round in a panic who makes sure you get out and fire doors are closed etc.

 

[phil d]

I've been keeping an eye on this all day, apparently the fire was started when a fridge exploded in one of the flats, it has reportedly been spreading not only upwards, via the cladding, but also horizontally. It is being said that lots of fire stopping has been removed by contractors during works, and not replaced, apparently something similar happened a few years ago, but obviously not as bad, apparently an investigation revealed loads of breaches of fire regs by the council. It was thought they'd have been crucified,but apparently they only got a very hefty fine, can't see them getting away with a fine this time.

The reason I mentioned a taller ALP ( aerial ladder platform) was to spray water higher into the building. Due to difficulty getting the appliance close to the building, some of it's potential height was lost reaching over obstructions.

Whatever the outcome of the inevitable investigation, they must start to install sprinkler systems, and proper fire alarms, buildings are getting taller, and as housing space becomes more costly there is a tendency to put the poorer members of society back in high rise, something that they were heading away from. A dry riser is only good up to about 20 mtrs, beyond this there are issues with pressure, there needs to be something positive coming out of this, Ironically LFB have not been as proactive as they could in enforcing fire laws, in this one fire there will sadly be more loss of life than in all the fires caused by consumer units. Maybe if they had put as much effort into righting the wrongs in these buildings as they did in calling for plastic cu's to be by and large outlawed in domestic premises, the whole tragedy could have been avoided!

However at the moment thoughts should be with the victims and their families.RIP Victims of the Grenfell Tower blaze.