London Fire

[phil d]

A lot of flats do not permit the use of portable gas appliances, be they for heating, lighting or cooking, When I did my stint with the fire service I was surprised be a great many things,not least the way fire behaves, and how the smoke colour is an indication of the materials burning.

I was concerned at the time about the thick black smoke coming from the fire in the tower block, it certainly indicated large amounts of plastics. Today it was stated that the cladding specified had been replaced with a cheaper version that did not meet the requirements for flammability, another interesting point was that the company that supplied the insulation said that the contractor responsible for the work, had indeed purchased the correct insulation from them.

However just because they bought the right stuff, it doesn't mean they used it on that job. I worked on a large contract some years ago and the spec called for the cable to be in 500 mtr rolls, as no joints were permitted except at sockets and switches,it didn't happen. The cable came on 100 mtr rolls and we used literally thousands of through crimps to make joints within the trunking. it was a job for the local council on a town hall, at no point did anyone check to verify that the work was done to their spec, if they had there'd have been big problems.

Another thing was that most of the residents of the tower appeared to be foreign immigrants, or people at the lower end of society, it's typical of the way people are treated, I've no doubt there will be a cover up over this fire, can you imagine if it had happened in one of the expensive tower blocks inhabited by the rich people? There'd be a load of people arrested already, also notice how the authorities did sod all to provide aid, it was all provided by volunteer groups and members of the public! Mind you no change there then, look at the way the people up north were treated during the floods, they got virtually nothing from central government in the way of assistance, even now a couple of years later there are still issues that remain unresolved. Compare that with the efforts taken to protect the posh areas of London from floods that never materialised.

As I said, the government doesn't care about the ordinary bloke in the street.

 

[apprentice87]

Now; "the gas popping as the fire spread " There could well be more to this than you would imagine...

My sisters husband is a serious fraud investigator for the DWP, london is his "patch" too. Now, he could tell you some stories.... For a start off, they will NEVER find out how many people died or who they were, as, quite conveniently for the government, apparently, in that area, there are LOADS of "illegals" and "subletting" of council flats is rife. They will have no idea at all who exactly was in there at the time....

Now the gas: Some of these foreign lot are not exactly "house trained" shall we put it... There were some living next door to my sisters friend. She could smell burning one day. She looked in through their window, and, in the middle of their downstairs room, they had an open fire, and were cooking on it. When i mean an open fire, they literally had a metal dustbin lid or whatever it was on the floor, with a small bonfire going in it... This despite the fact they had a proper gas cooker there... the council evicted them very quickly.. There could very well be LOADS of people in there with camping gas stoves....

Now, the flat where the fire started.. The next door neighbour has stated that they came out of their flat, and that the bloke from the flat that caught fire was there, with loads of stuff in black bags, and that there were two women with him, one of whom had a load of stuff in a packed suitcase!! The neighbour asserts that the flat door was open and they could see the fire...

Why did the bloke leave his front door open??

Why spent time packing instead of trying to extinguish the fire??

Who would pack stuff?? Surely you would just get as much as you could out into the corridor and close the front door to the flat. You would "save" MUCH more than you would get into the bags...

Expect arrests, not least of the people that installed the cladding...

john..

 

[ProDave]

The water is pushed through the base pump (appliance) & up the dry risers at 10 bar.

Just for a numoty, tell me why a riser through which you pump water, is referred to as "dry"? to me it seems very wet.  Before this I thought a dry riser was for pumping dry powder through?

 

[Andy™]

dry riser is a pipe running from ground level to each floor. at ground there is an inlet where the fire engine will connect a hose to and pumps water into it. firemen then go to the floor on fire and connect their hose to that. basically, it saes running a hose from ground floor to where they are at

wet riser is always wet ready to connect hose to and open valve. more expensive since it needs water tanks and pumps etc

 

[Lurch]

Just for a numoty, tell me why a riser through which you pump water, is referred to as "dry"? to me it seems very wet.  Before this I thought a dry riser was for pumping dry powder through?

I always understood it as a dry riser was just that, dry. To get water out of it you need to put something wet in it.

Dry riser = length of pipe basically.

 

[apprentice87]

I have only seen the dry ones. Problem is, you have the usual ******* opening the landing valves [the valves installed on each floor] and other idiots stuffing rubbish into the valves. Mr Fireman turns on the pump and the water pisses out all over the place, and they have to run round shutting valves.

The hospital i have to do with has two floors. Years ago, every ward upstairs had its own "landing valve" and there was also one about every hundred yards around the corridors downstairs. [The main corridor is in a loop and is a  1/4 of a mile long] Big shiny brass polished things they were. Anyway, they were all connected to the hospital water mains, a dedicated supply i presume. In about 1978, some idiot had the idea of doing away with them all and fitting a flange with a 3/4 valve and one of them red hoses on a reel instead. Years after that, and they are now all blocked off, and even the red hoses long gone.

The idea when they were installed, was that the fire brigade merely had to run into the hospital with a length of the 63/70mm hose, plug it in, and off you go...

Now though, i do not know what would happen... there are only a few hydrants round the outside of the hospital, and a lot of the building is surrounded by fairly steep slopes, and/or other obstacles, that would prevent a fire appliance being positioned close to the building. Quite how the fire brigade would be supposed to cope i do not know.. The hose of choice [because you can manouver the thing quickly, cool gases, protect yourself, and extinguish fires too, and all without using vast amounts of water] is the small high pressure ones on the fire appliance hose reels, but they would not even reach the building, never mind enter it. They would have to run hundreds and hundreds of yards of the 63/70mm hoses i presume, and the place would have burnt to the ground by the time they got set up..

Letting it burn down would suit the NHS management tossers though, the building, or at least part of it, is listed, and, in truth, they would dearly love to sell it all for housing.

As everyone else has demolished their hospital, they have patients brought in from all over the country, as, their own local health board, [or whatever they call them now] demolished their own hospitals...

Thing in the paper today, says that the bloke that sold the panels to the london flat contractors says they were the flammable ones. Apparently he tried to sell them the fire retardant ones, but they did not want them, as they were a mere £6000 more....

By rights, someone is in the ****, [and quite rightly so] but as money talks, them responsible will be completely let off, and some poor subbie will get all the blame...

john..

 

[Andy™]

wonder how many other blocks have the same stuff installed, just waiting to burn

 

[apprentice87]

Most of them i would have thought...

You would have to be a special sort of Fennel though to have even conceived the idea of fitting combustible cladding...

john...

 

[Andy™]

not their problem, its not on their mansion so they are not going to be killed by it

 

[OnOff]

Dry riser is dry. FB connect their appliance to it or from the mains supply in the street. That takes time.

With our wet riser the pipes are constantly full and under pressure. They feed reel hoses in the lobbies and the sprinklers on the floors. It's fed from swimming pool size tanks in the basement. These are a couple of stories high and lined with an EPDM liner which needs periodic replacement. If the system loses pressure the pumps kick in to maintain pressure, alarms go off, smoke vents open etc. Lifts all ground too. You've the noise of the pumps, the noise from the pressurisation sytems and it changes the whole feel of the place.

 

[Blue Duck]

I have only seen the dry ones. Problem is, you have the usual ******* opening the landing valves [the valves installed on each floor] and other idiots stuffing rubbish into the valves. Mr Fireman turns on the pump and the water pisses out all over the place, and they have to run round shutting valves.

The hospital i have to do with has two floors. Years ago, every ward upstairs had its own "landing valve" and there was also one about every hundred yards around the corridors downstairs. [The main corridor is in a loop and is a  1/4 of a mile long] Big shiny brass polished things they were. Anyway, they were all connected to the hospital water mains, a dedicated supply i presume. In about 1978, some idiot had the idea of doing away with them all and fitting a flange with a 3/4 valve and one of them red hoses on a reel instead. Years after that, and they are now all blocked off, and even the red hoses long gone.

The idea when they were installed, was that the fire brigade merely had to run into the hospital with a length of the 63/70mm hose, plug it in, and off you go...

Now though, i do not know what would happen... there are only a few hydrants round the outside of the hospital, and a lot of the building is surrounded by fairly steep slopes, and/or other obstacles, that would prevent a fire appliance being positioned close to the building. Quite how the fire brigade would be supposed to cope i do not know.. The hose of choice [because you can manouver the thing quickly, cool gases, protect yourself, and extinguish fires too, and all without using vast amounts of water] is the small high pressure ones on the fire appliance hose reels, but they would not even reach the building, never mind enter it. They would have to run hundreds and hundreds of yards of the 63/70mm hoses i presume, and the place would have burnt to the ground by the time they got set up..

Letting it burn down would suit the NHS management tossers though, the building, or at least part of it, is listed, and, in truth, they would dearly love to sell it all for housing.

As everyone else has demolished their hospital, they have patients brought in from all over the country, as, their own local health board, [or whatever they call them now] demolished their own hospitals...

Thing in the paper today, says that the bloke that sold the panels to the london flat contractors says they were the flammable ones. Apparently he tried to sell them the fire retardant ones, but they did not want them, as they were a mere £6000 more....

By rights, someone is in the ****, [and quite rightly so] but as money talks, them responsible will be completely let off, and some poor subbie will get all the blame...

john..

Like retired  mentioned, once the circus has moved on there won't be any more help for these poor sods.

As for punishing those responsible they will pass the buck until it hits rock bottom and some poor bugger will get the blame while the contractors management and the TMO will get golden parachutes and move on to greener pastures.

This sucks, from every angle you look at this it all points at political incompetence and profit before people, this a real opportunity to change the way things are done but as usual everything will soon return to the way it was before this mess! 

 

[OnOff]

Wasn't Part P introduced just before the death of one of the Lib Dem MP's daughters due to a kitchen electrocution? At least it focused attention on Part P and hopefully saved some lives long term notwithstanding the cowboy elements that jumped on the bandwagon.

If fire regs are changed you'd like to think good design & workmanship and official oversight will be the result until of course complacency sets in.

One can only hope something good will come out of this latest tradgedy.

 

[Evans Electric]

I think Part P came after the unfortunate death of an MP's daughter.     Wasn't it what kicked it all off ?  

I remember reading that he was "outraged that a cable could be buried just beneath the plaster"      It was infered that someone "Not competent"  had installed the cable,  when as we all know , it is normal practice.      I presume she drilled or cut  into it .  

 

[Evans Electric]

I have to admit that knowing what goes down here all the time ,  I wondered if someone had set up a canabis farm in a flat and melted the wiring .

 

[Phoenix]

I think it was running outside of permitted zones, Deke. Pretty sure part P was already on the way, but because the incident was 5 months or so before part P came in, everyone seems to associate the two, but changes to legislation just do not happen that quickly!

 

[Lurch]

Wasn't Part P introduced just before the death of one of the Lib Dem MP's daughters due to a kitchen electrocution?

Close; just after, in the bathroom.

That's not even the full story though really, there is nothing to say part p would have prevented it, I've certainly seen nothing to say it wouldn't have happened in the years since either. As always, it's down to the customer to pick a reputable person and not just "my mate from down the pubs brother in law" and electrician to actually do the job properly regardless.

 

[OnOff]

Close; just after, in the bathroom.

That's not even the full story though really, there is nothing to say part p would have prevented it, I've certainly seen nothing to say it wouldn't have happened in the years since either. As always, it's down to the customer to pick a reputable person and not just "my mate from down the pubs brother in law" and electrician to actually do the job properly regardless.

Says kitchen here. I thought is was but didn't realise the husband had put a rack up.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Says kitchen here. I thought is was but didn't realise the husband had put a rack up.

It was indeed the kitchen..

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1473919/MPs-daughter-electrocuted-in-botched-fitted-kitchen.html     

And Part-P was already under development before the incident...
 

Background

In May 2003 the Government announced that it was introducing a new Part to the Building Regulations, Part P, which would bring domestic electrical installation work in England and Wales under the legal framework of the Building Regulations. It will, for the first time, place a legal requirement for safety upon electrical installation work in dwellings, although the sector is highly regarded for its high levels of conformity with its chief standard, BS 7671.

It was announced that Part P would only be introduced in law when self-certification schemes were in place to ensure competency of the work undertaken. Such schemes are now in place. Part P of the Building Regulations became a legal requirement on January 1st 2005.

Guinness

 

[phil d]

Close; just after, in the bathroom.

That's not even the full story though really, there is nothing to say part p would have prevented it, I've certainly seen nothing to say it wouldn't have happened in the years since either. As always, it's down to the customer to pick a reputable person and not just "my mate from down the pubs brother in law" and electrician to actually do the job properly regardless.

The pubs seem to be full of electricians these days, a few weeks back, a friend of a friend who I'd done some work for rang me up. She wanted a shower swapping, like for like and was looking for prices, our mutual friend had recommended me, as she knew I wouldn't rip the woman off.

I told her I would swap it over and test it afterwards for £50 as they were good mates and I'd had plenty of work off her mate,call it an introductory offer if you like. I didn't get the work, she found somebody cheaper!

A while back I was really struggling for work and someone asked for a price for a job, because I was desperate for money I quoted something like £150 all in, and nearly £100 of that was materials, "sorry mate, there's a spark in the pub who'll do it for £80" was the response I got, there's a bloke advertises on Shpock local to me, Eastern European, reckons he's a spark. The other week someone asked about putting some wall lights in and his price was about £30, he asked the customer if the wall lights had switches, when he was told they did, his answer was,"great, I just need to run a thin wire from the nearest socket". Another one was somebody wanted an electric cooker fitting, they had no cooker feed, his answer was to fit a cooker switch and feed this off the nearest socket!

I've done one or two jobs ridiculously cheap when I've been short of money and a bill needs paying, but I've always made sure it's been done correctly, but a lot of these people just throw anything in, half the time the poor customer doesn't know it's wrong until it either goes faulty or they get another spark in and he tells them.

A mate of mine went to a job, a 2.5 SWA feeding a socket and light in a garage, it worked fine until the guy tried to use a cement mixer, it wouldn't have it. The cable was about 120 mtrs long! apparently the guy who fitted it had thought, "well a 2.5 carries 20 odd amps, it'll be fine for a single socket and 60 watt lamp"

We ended up doing some work for the customer, it was winter and got down to about minus 10, far too cold to be installing cables, anyway we stopped the job, the next thing the customer is giving us grief, apparently he'd asked the other spark,and he'd said we were talking garbage!

How the hell he could take the word of the same bloke who couldn't get a supply to a garage right is beyond me.

 

[steptoe]

I've had the same,

SiL wanted an electric shower fitting, I said I'd do it for free if she paid for materials, price of cable and a switch, about £60

Her daughters fellas brother done it for free, it didn't need new cable , or a switch,

She told my missus it kept blowing the trip, (tripping the MCB) , apparently an old immersion circuit can't handle a 9kW shower, :shakehead