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Thanks for all the great advice. I was there today and as it happens there is an original single phase meter in a garage that was used for the old DB so I am going to run a new set of tails from this to the new board and leave the 3ph for the heat pump.hopefully this will sort out their problems.

 
They are still getting a bill for the old meter as they still have a couple of circuits running off it.

Sorry kme I will try to be clearer. There is an old meter with a couple of circuits running off it so I will install a fused switch and run a set of tails to the domestic board and remove it from the 3ph. This will leave the heat pump on it's own 3 phase meter and the domestic

board will also be on it's own meter.

Many thanks

 
fitted meters for a while , they go wrong very very very rarely. it could cost them money if they did.

 
Yup. The heat pump can be classed as balanced, so you`re out of balance by the domestic supply usage.A `rough` way to understand three phase metering (technically incorrect, but you`ll get the idea).

Imagine the meter looks at all three incoming phases; reads the largest and records it. The you are billed for 3 X that amount.

For instance:

L1 : 48A

L2 : 16A

L3 : 16A

The meter will record L1, and you are effectively billed for 144A, though you`re only using 80A. As I said, it isn`t quite that simple, but, described in lay terms, it is close enough.

KME
Sorry, but that is complete & utter tosh! A three phase meter does NOT find the largest of the phases & triple it. The meter will record the actual real power consumed, by summing the POWER used on each phase. It does not matter whether the phases are balanced or not the meter will get the correct answer..... in the case above it would reocrd (48*230) + (16*230) + (16*230) = 18.4kVA NOT 33.1kVA as the post above suggests.

Adrian

 
Adrian41UK,

Metering is really one of my weak areas.

Now it was my understanding that it functions as you describe.

HOWEVER, I have experience of bill being reduced by balancing the actual measured current loads as described by KME.

So, what is the real true explanation?

I understood that meters metered the true power on each phase and summed that, however, there is only one display, not 3, thus there has to be a summation somewhere.

Now I have a customer that had an imbalance of around 100A, i.e. one phase was 100A greater than the largest of the other 2.

All of his single phase load was on one phase throught his factory!

I did a few calculations and a bit of rudimentary balancing with current only, that is only a clamp meter, and his bills reduced noticeably.

Thus my idea of the theory is with you, my experience is with KME.

Who is going to dispel the myth and explain the actual situation in simple terms and give a true sound engineering explanation of the fundemental and the actual engineering science behind these experiences?...

I have some ideas and theories, but I don't have sufficient access to the equipment and places to experiment, like, who is really gonna allow you to mess with their supplies and change things around so it costs them more!

 
Just a question here, ...Are DNO meters registering Kva these days or KW ??

My experience of the UK, It was always Kw, unless you had been naughty and either had some big old motors with high starting currents, and/or you didn't have PF correction facilities on sizable installations. In that case the Leccy board would take away the KW meters and install Kva meters and charge for every last bit of wattless current your installation was taking from there system..... Made a BIG difference in the quarterly Leccy bill !!! lol!!!!

 
Sorry, but that is complete & utter tosh! A three phase meter does NOT find the largest of the phases & triple it. The meter will record the actual real power consumed, by summing the POWER used on each phase. It does not matter whether the phases are balanced or not the meter will get the correct answer..... in the case above it would reocrd (48*230) + (16*230) + (16*230) = 18.4kVA NOT 33.1kVA as the post above suggests.Adrian
As with Sidewinder, it isn`t my strongest suit. But, if your description is accurate, why does alteration of the load distribution alter the bills?

I can assure you this happens; and I have to provide information as I find it; not as "the book" says it should work; but what actually happens in real life.

Your explaination would be really helpful, to me at least.....

KME

 
Larnacman : You are correct, DNO meters register kW (well, kWh but that is being picky). The reason that I worked my answer in kVA is that, from KME's orginal example, we don't have enough information to calculate the kW - we would need to know either the reactive power or the power factor before we could do that.

I'll try and explain ....... there are three kinds of power in an AC system: Real, Reactive & Apparent powers.

Real power is the thing that we are really interested in, it is measured in Watts, equates to 'work' and is the energy which is consumed by a simple resistive load like a heater or filament lamp load.

Reactive power is the exchange of magnetic energy, it is measured in VAr, is sometimes called 'wattless power' and is the power used to magnetise transformers, motors & other wound items. Just to complicate matters further, reactive power comes in two flavours - lagging (motors, inductors, transformers) and leading (Capactive loads)

Apparent power is the thing that we can easily measure - it is the product of the applied voltage & the current flowing and is measured in VA.

These three powers are related by the power triangle - real power (watts) is horizontal, reactive power is vertical & apparent power is the hypotenuse. Also, from this triangle comes the powert factor - it is the cosine of the angle between the real power & the apparent power. When we apply 'power factor correction' we are attempting to reduce the vertical 'reactive power' part to zero so that the apparent power is equal to the real power.

So what does all this have to do with metering, well, as stated above & also correctly stated by Larnacaman, we buy electricity from the DNO in kwh - ie we buy real power not apparent power. So how does the meter work this out?

An old analogue (single phase) meter consisted of two coils - a potential coil which was connected between phase & neutral and a current coil which was connected in series with the entire load current. These coils were arranged one above the other with the aluminium disc in between them. When a load was applied, the interaction between these two coils induced an eddy current in the aluminium disc, thus creating a magnetic field which repelled the field from the two coils hence creating a torque on the disc causing it to rotate. The higher the load current, the higher the torque & the faster the disc spun.

Now for part two of the power engineering lesson ........ when we measure the current in a circuit we are actually measuring the 'apparent' current - we can't easily measure the part of it which is responsible for the real power (Watts) or that which is responsible for the reactive power (VAr) however there is one way to separate them. If we could look at the voltage waveform & the current waveforms on an oscilloscope we would discover something interesting - the 'real' current is in phase with the voltage (ie. the peaks line up) while the 'reactive' current would be 90 degs out of phase. (ie. 1/4 cycle behind or ahead depending on whether it is inductive or capacitive).

So, back to metering ....... as stated above, the component of the load current which is responsible for 'Watts' is in-phase with the voltage - it is exactly this principle that the kwh meter uses to separate the real & reactive powers - only the magnetic field produced by the 'real' current in the winding will be in phase with the field produced by the voltage coil and hence will act upon the disc. Clever really.

A three phase meter works on exactly the same principles except that it contains three voltage coils (one per phase, connected phase to neutral) and three current coils - these are arranged such that the torque imposed on the disc is the sum of the torques created by each coil pair.

Modern digital meters use DSP (digital signal processing) to separate the currents into their components but the principles remain the same - it doesnt need to have three displays, the math is done internally and only the answer is displayed.

So, back to the original question ..... why did balancing the load currents reduce the bill. Without seeing the actual bills it is hard to say but I have a good idea:

If the customer is industrial he may well be on a traffic which penalises him for drawing more current than agreed in his contract (remember that the current flowing dictates the sizes of cables, cutouts etc all of which cost money to install & maintain). The metering equipment may well be arranged to detect this and penalise by charging a higher rate per kWh during each month the agreed capacity is exceeded. By balancing the phases, you will have reduced the biggest phase current seen by the metering apparatus and hence may no longer exceeding the maximum agreed figure - this would have a substaintial cost benefit while not actually changing the number of units recorded by the meter.

For those still not sure, consider this - If the meter did simply find this bigest & triple it, that would result in gross over charging for energy not supplied .... wouldn't that be fraud?

I hope I havent put you all to sleep...... :yawn

Adrian

 
Larnacman : You are correct, DNO meters register kW (well, kWh but that is being picky). The reason that I worked my answer in kVA is that, from KME's orginal example, we don't have enough information to calculate the kW - we would need to know either the reactive power or the power factor before we could do that.I'll try and explain ....... there are three kinds of power in an AC system: Real, Reactive & Apparent powers.

Real power is the thing that we are really interested in, it is measured in Watts, equates to 'work' and is the energy which is consumed by a simple resistive load like a heater or filament lamp load.

Reactive power is the exchange of magnetic energy, it is measured in VAr, is sometimes called 'wattless power' and is the power used to magnetise transformers, motors & other wound items. Just to complicate matters further, reactive power comes in two flavours - lagging (motors, inductors, transformers) and leading (Capactive loads)

Apparent power is the thing that we can easily measure - it is the product of the applied voltage & the current flowing and is measured in VA.

These three powers are related by the power triangle - real power (watts) is horizontal, reactive power is vertical & apparent power is the hypotenuse. Also, from this triangle comes the powert factor - it is the cosine of the angle between the real power & the apparent power. When we apply 'power factor correction' we are attempting to reduce the vertical 'reactive power' part to zero so that the apparent power is equal to the real power.

So what does all this have to do with metering, well, as stated above & also correctly stated by Larnacaman, we buy electricity from the DNO in kwh - ie we buy real power not apparent power. So how does the meter work this out?

An old analogue (single phase) meter consisted of two coils - a potential coil which was connected between phase & neutral and a current coil which was connected in series with the entire load current. These coils were arranged one above the other with the aluminium disc in between them. When a load was applied, the interaction between these two coils induced an eddy current in the aluminium disc, thus creating a magnetic field which repelled the field from the two coils hence creating a torque on the disc causing it to rotate. The higher the load current, the higher the torque & the faster the disc spun.

Now for part two of the power engineering lesson ........ when we measure the current in a circuit we are actually measuring the 'apparent' current - we can't easily measure the part of it which is responsible for the real power (Watts) or that which is responsible for the reactive power (VAr) however there is one way to separate them. If we could look at the voltage waveform & the current waveforms on an oscilloscope we would discover something interesting - the 'real' current is in phase with the voltage (ie. the peaks line up) while the 'reactive' current would be 90 degs out of phase. (ie. 1/4 cycle behind or ahead depending on whether it is inductive or capacitive).

So, back to metering ....... as stated above, the component of the load current which is responsible for 'Watts' is in-phase with the voltage - it is exactly this principle that the kwh meter uses to separate the real & reactive powers - only the magnetic field produced by the 'real' current in the winding will be in phase with the field produced by the voltage coil and hence will act upon the disc. Clever really.

A three phase meter works on exactly the same principles except that it contains three voltage coils (one per phase, connected phase to neutral) and three current coils - these are arranged such that the torque imposed on the disc is the sum of the torques created by each coil pair.

Modern digital meters use DSP (digital signal processing) to separate the currents into their components but the principles remain the same - it doesnt need to have three displays, the math is done internally and only the answer is displayed.

So, back to the original question ..... why did balancing the load currents reduce the bill. Without seeing the actual bills it is hard to say but I have a good idea:

If the customer is industrial he may well be on a traffic which penalises him for drawing more current than agreed in his contract (remember that the current flowing dictates the sizes of cables, cutouts etc all of which cost money to install & maintain). The metering equipment may well be arranged to detect this and penalise by charging a higher rate per kWh during each month the agreed capacity is exceeded. By balancing the phases, you will have reduced the biggest phase current seen by the metering apparatus and hence may no longer exceeding the maximum agreed figure - this would have a substaintial cost benefit while not actually changing the number of units recorded by the meter.

For those still not sure, consider this - If the meter did simply find this bigest & triple it, that would result in gross over charging for energy not supplied .... wouldn't that be fraud?

I hope I havent put you all to sleep...... :yawn

Adrian
not at all mate, i was actually reading that with great interest, as thats very interesting on the knowledge of how metering systems actually work, so for that info, im going to scoob you ;)

 
Adrian41UK,

The power lesson was unnecessary, this I already understand.

However, thank you for that.

One comment the 90 deg lead/lag is not constant as it depends upon the exact "reactance" of the load the 90 is only true for pure loads.

The power triangle etc. I already understand.

Your description of meter function is exactly as it had been explained to me, and as I understood it.

The tariff going over "limit" I also understand, been there had my b0110ck1ng for exceeding it by starting machinery up in the wrong order!

However, and I cannot verify the exact situation as the particulat client has since upgraded his supply, that I re-balanced the load and even out of balance it was well within his supply capacity however, once balanced the bills reduced!

The only thing I can say is that the total current was well within that of the installed equipment, so unless the supply current limit was below the supply capacity then I can't follow the reasoning.

BTW, in most industrial situations the power factor is dynamic so will require dynamic PF correction to minimise the real power consumed.

Sorry bud, nothing new in your post and nothing to explain the readings I have made, however, I was only using a true power rms clamp meter, not a power analyser, but, the client already had purpose designed (apparently) PF correction installed.

I could not verify the state of this as it was outside my remit.

Your explanation seems sound, but still seems lacking, sorry, any further comment?...

 
I too am scoobing you for that, mate - a highly informative post.

As with snakehips; a lot of that I do know, some I wasn`t as clued up on.

However, I have seen this on more than one occasion; and have "sort of" tested the theory by removing a single phase load from a TPN supply, which did not impact the current drawn by the highest loaded phase; and the KWh recording of the meter remained unchanged. I could not see how this could be, with my understanding of metering, and formulated the admittedly basic explaination all by myself; knowing it to be against the theory I`d been taught, but helpless to actually explain the reality of customer`s load balance.

So I began using my "layman`s explaination", to attempt to rationalise the real world results - the description I posted was the closest plain english response I could manage.

Remeber please; I have to "convert" all technical terminology into stuff the average property owner / agent / estates management liason can understand; and they tend to be fairly clueless, TBH.

If you can provide a theoretical reason for such results as SW & I have noted, I for one, would be most grateful.

"scoobmeister"

 
good post adrian!

Could 3 single phase old disc meters give a different reading to 1 3phase digital meter due to the way they work?

 
Adrian41UK,The power lesson was unnecessary, this I already understand.

However, thank you for that.

One comment the 90 deg lead/lag is not constant as it depends upon the exact "reactance" of the load the 90 is only true for pure loads.

The power triangle etc. I already understand.

Your description of meter function is exactly as it had been explained to me, and as I understood it.

The tariff going over "limit" I also understand, been there had my b0110ck1ng for exceeding it by starting machinery up in the wrong order!

However, and I cannot verify the exact situation as the particulat client has since upgraded his supply, that I re-balanced the load and even out of balance it was well within his supply capacity however, once balanced the bills reduced!

The only thing I can say is that the total current was well within that of the installed equipment, so unless the supply current limit was below the supply capacity then I can't follow the reasoning.

BTW, in most industrial situations the power factor is dynamic so will require dynamic PF correction to minimise the real power consumed.

Sorry bud, nothing new in your post and nothing to explain the readings I have made, however, I was only using a true power rms clamp meter, not a power analyser, but, the client already had purpose designed (apparently) PF correction installed.

I could not verify the state of this as it was outside my remit.

Your explanation seems sound, but still seems lacking, sorry, any further comment?...
Think the explanation given by Adrian sums it all up nicely. What else can he comment on?

 
Think the explanation given by Adrian sums it all up nicely. What else can he comment on?
Well; he could comment on the assertion by SW and myself, that balancing the load reduces consumption, which shouldn`t happen with the system he explains.

i.e. the technical explaination of the operation of the metering system doesn`t explain the phenomenon we have both oberseved (and we can`t be the only ones.......

 
Well; he could comment on the assertion by SW and myself, that balancing the load reduces consumption, which shouldn`t happen with the system he explains.i.e. the technical explaination of the operation of the metering system doesn`t explain the phenomenon we have both oberseved (and we can`t be the only ones.......
It is a very popular assertion that balancing reduces bills, but that might just be an old wives tale rather then reality.

 
Binky,

I agree that I too thought it to be an old wives tale!

I have however, actually "observed" the phenomenon.

SME joinery company (no surprise at the industry!), was having problems with main MCCB tripping at odd/random times, checked out, all single phase loads on Red.

Balanced loads by a bit of rough calculation, moving things around, stupid bit was the 3 off 1ph db's all off the red ph!

Still tripped, so changed the MCCB.

No more tripping and this reduced the customers bills, so he told me, and he is no fool, has done quite well, in fact through the recession he has doubled the size of his factory and brought in a very expensive machine, hence the supply upgrade!



I still cannot from my understanding of metering theory as I was taught, and the excellent previous post from Adrian41uk see how this can be so, unless there is more to this, or, is there perhaps something in the metering that will increase the reading for say 10, 20, 25, 30 40, 50% imbalance perhaps?...

 
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