Mix & match mcb`s

[Sidewinder]

It seems that most all have missed my point.

There are several issues here, and NONE are the making of SBS Dave!

Dave, I too know Prof, & I am aware of the other "forum" you speak of, I have no access there though as I am not a member.

Thus Prof also knows me, we have debated this in person, and actually there is an agreement between ourselves on certain aspects.

I have actually taken this up in person with manufacturers and other organisations.

The issues are complex.

To put your mind at rest, I regularly undertake work which does not comply with BS7671 & have no issues with this.

However, the issue with this particular area is complex and confounded by the manufacturers being protectionist & the standards being inconclusive.

Neither are helpful.

However, there are issues that must be overcome for compliance with BS7671 unless you are prepared to enter deviations, or cover the design & build with your own PII, and thus can prove in a court of law your own professional competence with regard to the design and build decisions you make.

As I say, not your fault, I don't doubt that your kit is "AT LEAST" of the same standard as any other device to 60898/61008/61009 on the market, but...

The issues lay with "associated" areas!

These need to be clarified, and to be honest, it is doubtful they ever will.

Also with 60439 being replaced "now" things will now be in a state of flux...

 

[SBS Dave]

Hi Pewter,

Only just spotted your comments, which I suspect are tongue-in-cheek ones. My comments are in a similar vein.

People do mention the important things, it is just that "looking mucky" is probably not high up on a risk assessment list.

However, I can see how some customers could be appalled, when confronted with different brand names in different font styles, even different colour schemes.

Then add to that, different shapes and sizes of switches and buttons and IN DIFFERENT COLOURS, for god's sake!!

And I can understand you would not want to display a picture of that type of CU in the "look what I've done" gallery of your website.

My suggestion is therefore, that we lobby for an amendment to the EICR, in order to add another category, C4, which would be entitled " POTENTIALLY OFFENSIVE TO THE ARTISTICALLY SENSITIVE - MAKE-OVER REQUIRED". If necessary, Further Investigation required by a Competent Person (Interior Designer).

Mind you, if we can convince customers to shell out for a new CU on the basis of the old one "looks mucky", then Pewter may have a point.

SBS Dave

 

[steptoe]

hey,

Im pretty sure there is a manufacturer that actually makes their different size (rating) MCBs different colours, it looks terrible imo,

a total lash up,

I have no problems mixing MCBs most of the time, I do have thoughts though when they look completely alien to the rest,

NO problems whatsoever populating a board completely though with a different make from either the board or main switch , after all, the main switch looks nothing like an MCB anyway.

 

[Zeespark]

I think its Contactum MCB's Steps, the ones that look like they have been colour coded by toddlers.

Andy Guinness

 

[ProDave]

Steps, you are not thinking of the old Wylex ones where the colour of the dolly denoted the rating?  I thought that was a brilliant idea, really useful when looking in a dark cupboard trying to find say the lightimg mcb. Much easier to identify a colour in poor light, than read a small number.

And it really pi55e5 me off when you buy a populated kit CU, and some extra MCB's of the same make to make up what you really want. Only to find the additional ones, though of the same make, are a different design with the dollies at a different level. How to make a new CU look carp right from the start.

 

[Robin Spark]

Is it ok to mix wylex circuit breakers from 2010 with the recent MK main switches?

Ive heard they get on like a house on fire!

Is there going to be any compensation from MK for going out to replace their switches or are they just offering a replacement?

 

[Steve3948]

Well Halers and Collingwod pay for going back to replace failed units be it in fittings, so I would think MK would do the same, don't ask don't get.

 

[batty]

You just have to give details and they are going to send somebody out to check them.

I think in future if I get any more faulty three gang sockets from MK I will give them the details and they can send somebody out to replace them.

 

[wozz]

Moeller x poles and F&m had different colour rockers, which are now the memshield 3 but they have all the same colour.

 

[professional]

WELL, WE'LL, WELL!!!

Came across this topic just now, started by Prof, who clearly agrees with my position with regard to BSEN60439.

The mix and match debate was going on long before I became involved with TEF.

I hadn't realised that Prof was on this Forum, as I know him very well and he has a substantial standing in the Electrical Industry.

He has evaluated my Compact RCBOs and has given glowing reports on another Forum.

There is no question that Compact RCBOs are the future and it won't be long before the other "manufacturers" get on the bandwagon.

Maybe I should be worried about that, but I am not. The products they will introduce as Brand Owners, will be the same as mine or 2 other popular original products, so interchangeability and ongoing availability won't be a problem. I am likely to be cheaper to start with, but they can always price me out of the market if they want. If that happens, I will always have the satisfaction of knowing that I pioneered the Compact concept and that I wasn't afraid to stand up to the UK manufacturers' vested interest club,

SBS Dave

and I`m still here, watching - and missing NOTHING ....  ]

Personally, I think that the general design of consumer units etc is being held back by the vested interests of the "manufacturers" (or, more correctly, the  companies masquerading as manufacturers who bulk buy and screen print products). The fact that so much of the UK market`s mcb`s come from so few actual manufacturers in China SHOULD have led us down the standardisation route with regards physical dimensions etc. BUT the vested interests hold sway.

MK appears to now have a BIG problem with their 100Amp DP incomers - taking into account the Wylex fiasco of a few years ago, I think that it is time to take stock of where we should be heading. If the physical connections etc were included in BS60898, "manufacturers" would be pressured into ensuring the quality of their products as the trade could simply swap faulty breakers etc for another make and leave the dodgy scam mongers to count the cost of lost future sales.

At present, they have very little to fear from their own crappy products as they have the market all-but tied up. There is little advantage from modular consumer units when the manufacturers are allowed to act in such a shameful, protectionist manner. X(

It seems that most all have missed my point.

There are several issues here, and NONE are the making of SBS Dave!

Dave, I too know Prof, & I am aware of the other "forum" you speak of, I have no access there though as I am not a member.

Thus Prof also knows me, we have debated this in person, and actually there is an agreement between ourselves on certain aspects.

I have actually taken this up in person with manufacturers and other organisations.

The issues are complex.

To put your mind at rest, I regularly undertake work which does not comply with BS7671 & have no issues with this.

However, the issue with this particular area is complex and confounded by the manufacturers being protectionist & the standards being inconclusive.

Neither are helpful.

However, there are issues that must be overcome for compliance with BS7671 unless you are prepared to enter deviations, or cover the design & build with your own PII, and thus can prove in a court of law your own professional competence with regard to the design and build decisions you make.

As I say, not your fault, I don't doubt that your kit is "AT LEAST" of the same standard as any other device to 60898/61008/61009 on the market, but...

The issues lay with "associated" areas!

These need to be clarified, and to be honest, it is doubtful they ever will.

Also with 60439 being replaced "now" things will now be in a state of flux...

The issues are as complex as they have made them due to near- terminal conflict of interest.

 

[professional]

I have a few ideas .... here`s one :

http://sparksafeltp.org/news/electrical-industry-calls-for-voluntary-licensing-scheme-2/#.UXGVIaLYezk

The site states the requirement for a "qualified electrician" should be an installation qualification and training - so who thinks that they will be deemed a "qualified electrician" and who would be classed as a labourer under such a common sense licensing system?  ]

 

[Z1gic89]

i came across a job in a warehouse where someone had installed an abb breaker into a different board, and it switched the opposite way to all the other breakers :/ (shneider i think)

 

[Evans Electric]

Or he had fitted it the wrong way round .

 

[Richard-the-Ninth]

I have a few ideas .... here`s one :

http://sparksafeltp.org/news/electrical-industry-calls-for-voluntary-licensing-scheme-2/#.UXGVIaLYezk

Link shows 404 error, page not found

 

[SBS Dave]

Another customised DB, with 2 x MCBs on same DIN rail as Compact RCBOs

OOPS!! Should have added this to my SBS Trade Sales page. Will now do so

 

[binky]

during my annual assessment from NICEIC I was told mixing MCBs from different manufacturers is a definite NO-NO. Don't think I'm going to take too much notice of that, but it's interesting to get an official view.

 

[Churchill]

As long as they fit securely

 

[Tony S]

? ? ? ?

Miss out on the chance to change the entire board?

 

[SBS Dave]

The attached extract from BSEN61439-1, is also embodied in BSEN61439-3.

it allows for device substitution, provided certain characteristics of the substitute device are considered.

The first consideration is power loss and resultant temperature changes. Compliance with 60898 for MCBs, 61009 for RCBOs, 61008 for RCDs, etc. and usually stated as an operating temperature range in the device's specification.

The next is physical compatibility, which usually is to do with terminal heights in relation to busbar alignment and other physical factors. 

The other consideration listed is the short circuit capacity of the device, in relation to the original. Usually 6 KA for Domestic CU devices. 

There are many Main Switches, RCDs, MCBs and RCBOs sold in this country, which are part of an identical series, a popular one being the Chinese DZ47 Series. Although the LOGO might be different, these would satisfy 10.10.3.5 in every respect. Other devices of a different Series but with the same or vey similar characteristics, would also satisfy the Standard.

The decision as to whether the substituted device is similar enough to comply, would be down to the professional opinion of the Competent Person (or should I say Skilled Person (Electrically)), who is "able to perceive risks". 

If we are not to be recognised by BEAMA et al, then why have we spent all our time, money and training, in order to comply with BS7671's definition of a Skilled Person (Electrically)?

SBS Dave

 

[Davethsparky]

What about this from a place in the middle of London.Durham

switchgear boards butchered with a grinder to accept memshield (1) MCBs and bits of Perspex bolted on to cover unused ways?

since I started doing work for them we have been discussing the possibility of replacing the boards, but it's a bit of an elephant in the room, we all know it isn't exactly great but nobody wants to drop a bombshell on the people who hold the purse strings. 

So the boards are slowly becoming surrounded by extra enclosures for the RCDs which are being added to circuits as and when it becomes necessary.