National campaign for licencing of electrical contractors

[M107]

Firstly I apologise for using the term "5 day wonders" because I know the vast majority that take that route are very good & do infact put some time served sparks to shame.......just a pity we only hear about poor work from the clowns, shelf stackers & kitchen fitters that are 5 dayers.

I notice in the links section the very first link is to the site, where some bloke has been binned as an NICEIC assessor.....not the same person asking for licencing is it?

All sound good having to have licencing to be an electrical contractor & it could be round the corner, especialy when you think it was only a few months ago the powers that be were considering bringing in a teaching licence for teachers, which I have to add would have been yearly fee (so Mrs 107 tells me)....... another stealth working Tax?

But I'm with most of the others here, too many people are making money out of the current set up for it to change.

Also sounds like he is wanting a tier'd licencing system...cant see that working at all...just look at the defined scope part p, lowest graded plumber still thinks he can put in new circuits.

The only way it will change & the only way part P will be policed, is when home insurance & mortgage companies jump on the band wagon & insist on compulsory periodics plus certification for any electrical work, all from part P registered tradespersons.

And the next thing I can see happening is.... you can only undertake periodics if you are registered to do so (belive me I bet it's on the way) & having been on a DPIR course just recently I can see a few issues brewing there aswel with regard to 5 day wonders.

End thought the only way I can see it working would be for plumbers to do plumbing, kitchen fitters to stack shelves (ok fit kitchens) & electricians do do electrics...none of this tier licencing so other trades can do some of the work. Just plain old to get a licence you have to have as a minimum completed (i shall use the old course numbers as thats what I did) C&G 2360 / 2391 & current wiring regs...& make it the old 2391 none of this watered down two part stuff (and it can be done as night schooling hard & a lot of years but do-able)

Sign the petition no not me sounds elitest to me as I said some 5 day wonders are very good so why penalise them. I would how ever sign one for better policing of part P & tougher entry to the P register.

 

[Lee321]

devil's advocate

there will be good and bad 5 dayers and

good and bad time served

imo some years under the wing of a experienced spark would make a better beginner regardless of training route

 

[wozz]

Its a mess at the moment. There should be a licensing system with the weight of the law backing it up, if you dont meet the requirements of the license you dont touch it if you do you break the law, and be able to produce your license when asked.

Part P courses are being given away free with fast track plumbing courses, Part P has encouraged DIY, nice idea but was never going far enough to actually improve standards.

 

[binky]

I have signed because as stated in previous posts I believe no-one should be able offer any trade unless qualified to do so, whether that be hairdressing or electrics. Even id that is 5 day wonder boys, at least they have passed some qualification, and its better than the idiots who think they can do our job. Was working in a kitchen today where there was no CPC to metal light switch, no main bonds to gas or water, no RCDs, cpc not connected to metal light fitting - the builder doing the attic conversion next door was the culprit where no doubt he's firkin that up aswell. At least if all have to be registered it should give joe public clarity on who can do what leagally, and perhaps persuade them to leave cowboys alone.

 

[ianmacd]

Just because you have done a part P course there is no guarantee that you will pass part P assessment anyway. They already have the basis of a system with part P so its unlikely any further tightening will not simply be built on that.

 

[wozz]

Just because you have done a part P course there is no guarantee that you will pass part P assessment anyway. They already have the basis of a system with part P so its unlikely any further tightening will not simply be built on that.

are defined scope PArt P assessments purely a paper assessment?

 

[tom1]

are defined scope PArt P assessments purely a paper assessment?

you chose a scope based on what you do then the your work is assesed, if you do full scope di then you need to do major work and minor if you go defined scope then you present minor jobs

 

[wozz]

the question more referred to the standard of assessment involved in defined scope part P.

 

[green-hornet]

This is a very interesting debate with mixed responses as to the questions raised.

When any serious debate is aired you have to remain emotive, one of the problems every one has when replying is that any view is based on your view, be it right or wrong.

When you see a problem, your mind will go through a certain preconceived formula,that is

Problem

Solution

Implications

Compromise

Workable solution

Problems with final solution

Workability of end result

Concessions to result

If all steps are taken without emotion you end up with the situation we have at present.

The only difference to any outcome would be a very radical change in law, that I will state my life on whilst I draw breath, no government will take.

The reason is that for any law to take effect ,the policing of that law has to be seen to be achievable unfortunately we have seen many laws past in both commons and the house of lords that do not comply. Now as a result and to save face, most governing bodies will not take any steps that should be taken so as to not infringe on the individual rights of any individual.

All current governing bodies for Part P will oppose any changes, because the financial losses to them would be enormous.

When Part P came into effect it basically held to ransom qualified electricians who felt there was no way to continue in business unless they registered. Little did they know that by doing so they would subject themselves to the bureaucracy that we have today in mixed standards shown by the recent court case in Scotland where a judge submitted that BS 7671 was not a case in law, and as such could not be used as any evidence in a court.

Whilst this system is in place I guarantee there will be no official statements as to the actual reported notifications of electrical work in comparison to the none reported handy man/kitchen fitter/gardener type of installs.

The court case in Scotland has allowed each and every one of us to revolt. With absolute redemption and, even with, any dangerous occurrences, providing the property is sold before the problem irises you will not ever ever be prosecuted.

Unfortunately with a spineless government, and scheme providers who earn millions per year, this will never happen.

 

[ianmacd]

I thought that the basis for the judges comments that were proving deviation of 7671 is not unlawful (which we all know anyway). The same would be true of part P as it says follow 7671 or similar standard (or something like that).

If that case were to be brought in England or wales then it may have a different outcome as our Building Regs require a certain standard of work and the home owner is responsible for that so sub-standard work would be their responsibility. If only we could have a test case now. That would kick things into action, I am sure.

 

[steptoe]

The only way to get rid of cowboys is to make 7671 mandatory and make it illegal to do electrics if you are not a time served electrician.Agree

These 3 week courses in my opinion do not make you an electrician only a apprenticeship does (mine was 7 years) only time and experience can

agree

If anyone finds part p a burden on their business then quite frankly i don't think they should be in business -+

 

[Theorysparky]

Steptoes comments

I have made all my simple cases in red,

my simple arguement is,

if you are a skilled tradesperson, 5week wonder or 5 year weary, then a simple government skills test is no big deal, but only if it is a gov back test, and not a private enterprise.

(like an MOT, but in NI an MOT is gov provided, and not a private garage with a back hander)

totally agree

Do you think then there should be two types of test

those who only want to do Domestic and those who want to do only

industrial/commercial.

there are guys on here that have a preference...

 

[green-hornet]

I thought that the basis for the judges comments that were proving deviation of 7671 is not unlawful (which we all know anyway). The same would be true of part P as it says follow 7671 or similar standard (or something like that).If that case were to be brought in England or wales then it may have a different outcome as our Building Regs require a certain standard of work and the home owner is responsible for that so sub-standard work would be their responsibility. If only we could have a test case now. That would kick things into action, I am sure.

Unfortunately it does not quite work like that. I have acted for a building control I and another independant electrician came to the same conclusion, and that was that the wiring was not up to regs but, and this is the big but, nothing was found that we could say posed an immediate danger, even though some items if disturbed could become dangerous.

Based on that evidence no prosecution could be taken and the owner of the property was not forced to remove any of the installation. They just recommended that it be rewired as soon as practical.

Laughable really when you think about it.

 

[ProDave]

Unfortunately it does not quite work like that. I have acted for a building control I and another independant electrician came to the same conclusion, and that was that the wiring was not up to regs but, and this is the big but, nothing was found that we could say posed an immediate danger, even though some items if disturbed could become dangerous.Based on that evidence no prosecution could be taken and the owner of the property was not forced to remove any of the installation. They just recommended that it be rewired as soon as practical.

Laughable really when you think about it.

That's as good as saying you can ignore part P completely as long as what you do is SAFE and no IMMEDIATE danger.

In fact if that's their attitude, you might as well ignore building regulations completely, As long as the building is not in imminent danger of collapse it sounds like they won't prosecute.

 

[green-hornet]

That's as good as saying you can ignore part P completely as long as what you do is SAFE and no IMMEDIATE danger.In fact if that's their attitude, you might as well ignore building regulations completely, As long as the building is not in imminent danger of collapse it sounds like they won't prosecute.

I have had this out with a local building inspector, the only prosecution they will take is if its dangerous, in my view any electrical system if not installed as it should be is dangerous, however that is not in law.

On another job a steel rsj was installed that was not placed on pad stones, the building inspector made them take it out and placed on a padstone.

Now where is the difference between that not conforming and an electrical cable?

It beggars belief but this is what we are up against.

 

[ProDave]

On another job a steel rsj was installed that was not placed on pad stones, the building inspector made them take it out and placed on a padstone.Now where is the difference between that not conforming and an electrical cable?

Interesting points raised.

During a new build (or alteration) building control are supposed to inspect at certain points. In a case where they saw that RSJ without it's padstones, they told the builder to put it right.

Surely the same should happen with the wiring. If during their inspections they see some wiring installed in a way that does not comply, they should instruct it to be corrected.

But what happens if the work is done without inspection? either because the BC inspector can't make it to site, or because the work was not notified?

If that happens, in theory, BC have the power to make the builder uncover the work done so it can be inspected. Do they ever actually do that?

If all else fails, even if BC don't prosecute, they can still withhold issuing a completion certificate if works are not up to building regs, and without a completion certificate it will be almost impossible to sell a house if a mortgage is required by the purchaser.

 

[steptoe]

Steptoes commentsI have made all my simple cases in red,

my simple arguement is,

if you are a skilled tradesperson, 5week wonder or 5 year weary, then a simple government skills test is no big deal, but only if it is a gov back test, and not a private enterprise.

(like an MOT, but in NI an MOT is gov provided, and not a private garage with a back hander)

totally agree

Do you think then there should be two types of test

those who only want to do Domestic and those who want to do only

industrial/commercial.

there are guys on here that have a preference...

Im not sure that 2 types would work,

but a stepped licencing system may work,

ie, domestic as the basic,

and working up to and beyond industrial via commercial,

could be a possibility.

Im not knocking domestic guys, but to do industrial/commercial and further you need to know the basics of 1ph(house bashing), but it doesnt work backwards.

I think to licence to a specific task would be uncontrollable, better to have step ups.

 

[Theorysparky]

Good idea that Steps stepped licensing

i only do domestic and small shops

but when work is tight on on to my agencies and get on a big site as a 'mate'

when they find out i am a domestic spark i get to do the 'next level' of wiring

ie emergency lighting/key switches etc steel conduit, basket,tray

then i ask to assist 3 phase board working,not that i expect to be left alone it but i would see it as the stepping stone to the next level from domestic

 

[steptoe]

Theory, I hope you realise Im not knocking the mostly domestic guys,

but as you will know that there can be a massive difference between 1,2&3 phase,

but it all requires a basic knowledge of single phase in the beginning,

and as you will also have grasped doing the type of work you do on site you are gaining more valuable knowledge towards the "next" step.

I would think perhaps this was the intention of defined scope,domestic and approved,

except as usual they fricked it up again.

someone else has said it,

plumbers plumb, joiners join, kitchen fitters bodge and let the sparks do the wiring.