Nice little "Real World" bonding question?

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When I started that reply; I was only showing 10 posts on this thread.

It took about 10 mins, and suddenly all these other posts had arrived!!!!

Call for Sculder & Mully,

Or is it mouldier and silly?

OR...........

XXXXX and FILES :) :)

 
O.k. Everyone. Stop writing! hand in your papers now!!! :) ;)

Oh no I think Theory is asleep at the back of the class:z:z

He didn't even get round to writing his answers! :eek: never mind... :) :x

So lets just recap...

two questions...

1] How many errors/omissions/non-compliances can you note with this arrangement?

I shall list out the observations I found in no particular order of importance..

1} The earth wire at the gas meter went back to the earth clamp on the cold water pipe:O

2} The earth wire at the hot water pipe went back to the earth bar in the CU

3} So in the strict sense Neither cold water NOR gas are directly bonded back to CU...but the Gas & cold water were supplementary bonded!!

4} The earth clamp at the gas pipe had NO warning label fitted.

5} The earth clamp at the cold water pipe had NO warning label fitted.

6} The warning label on the hot water pipe is just tucked around the loose bit of the strap.. likely to fall off (which is what probably happened to the other label!) {although hot bond is not any requirement!!!}

7} The cold water bond should be made after the stop tap.. but before and branches or tee's in the pipework.

8} all of the bonding conductors C.S.A. are too small with regard to current regs.

9} Main Earth from CU to PME head should be 10mm in relation to 16mm supply tails

Think that was most of them! phtt! :eek: :(

Next question was...

2] How would you leave the installation after completing PIR?

Now the general concept of Inspection & Testing is that you do ONLY that.. Not remedial or alteration work!

Unless a serious danger to persons, property or livestock requires urgent work to make safe!

BUT Real world kicks in again..

In order to test & identify these bonding wires... I had to disconnect them from the conductive copper pipes...

whilst all of the cables were disconnected I checked for continuity across the pipework... Hot - Cold -Gas highest reading <15ohms

So there was a continuity between all of the bonding points and if I had put them back as I found them it could be argued that there is no significant danger as long as the pipework isn't modified!

If I had left it as it was.. then spoke to customer.. they would say..

how much to fix it.. I would say approx half hour & a couple of clamps!

So may as well do improvement rather than leaving it unaltered.

Modified Gas

Crimp lug onto Gas wire, Fit new clamp.. & warning sign

wrap a bit of pvc ins tape Grn/Yell to ensue correct identification of conductors.

The pipe going down the wall from the meter is the outgoing side on sold pipework.

New water

One of the earth wires under the sink had a load of spare wire stuffed down the back of the sink unit.

Cut them both back to same length.

Strip ends and crimp both wires into same lug.

wrap a bit of pvc ins tape Grn/Yell to ensue correct identification of conductors.

Fit new earth clamp after Tap but before TEE Ensure correct warning sign is fixed to clamp!

With the off-cut make a small bonding strap between the hot & cold pipes..

Unnecessary but there is now a spare clamp sitting there unused. and it ain't going to make any problems.

So now on the PIR cert I can just observe that CSA bonding too small upgrade at earliest convenience

Think thats about it!

Well done everyone who had a go at input! :z :z:z:z:z:z:z:z:z

 
Apache didn't do so bad for an amature :p

I still don't 'get' how you can modify it and just note on PIR that bonding non complient and needs upgrading after you have altered it in some way? It is a little different if it was totally unsafe, but you did more than you HAD to.

I'm not been awkward here just want to understand. How's it different to sticking in a 16th edition CU (coz they are cheap now) and saying i've done it but it needs upgrading ;) ; ) nudge nudge?

 
Apache,

By the book you are correct. SL has installed main bonding that is non-compliant to the current regs (naughty naughty) ;)

But in the real world he has made it a lot better (and safer) than it was previously (and chances are the client would not want to pay for new cables to be installed).

D.

 
Apache didn't do so bad for an amature :p I still don't 'get' how you can modify it and just note on PIR that bonding non complient and needs upgrading after you have altered it in some way? It is a little different if it was totally unsafe, but you did more than you HAD to.
It could be argued that it was unsafe as neither Gas Or Water were correctly bonded..

This is where COMMON sense and a knowledge of the regs & what is

(UNSAFE) -vs- (NON COMPLIANT & NOT UNSAFE) has to come into play.

Option 1.

open all joints up.. do test.. put back as found .. write a list as long as your arm for the customer.

Option 2.

open all joints up.. do test.. do quick easy mod' to remedy some of the problems.. write a shorter list for the customer of bits requiring further attention.

Option 3.

open all joints up.. do test.. rip old stuff out.... run in new compliant cable...

no list needed for customer, just a much bigger invoice listing all the extra work...

hope the customer will pay you the extra for the non-agreed work..

Option 2 is the most practical & common sense approach in this particular situation! EVERY JOB is different and will be evaluated accordingly. Also it would be tricky trying to explain all those reasons why the earth wires they could see were wrong!

Easer now just to say It is the wrong sized cable!

I'm not been awkward here just want to understand. How's it different to sticking in a 16th edition CU (coz they are cheap now) and saying i've done it but it needs upgrading ;) ; ) nudge nudge?
Different type of work:

PIR bit like car MOT.. only checking condition,

but if whilst having MOT garage note a fairly easy problem to fix..

e.g. wiper blades worn..

you would be a bit miffed if they failed in on knacker wiper blades..

Rather than just checking with you and sticking some new ones on.

Replace CU is a requested JOB as you would never consider swapping a CU on a PIR!

you have got to go out and purchase the correct CU..

so just get the correct item anyway....

There is no logical or common sense reason or NOT fitting an appropriate CU compliant with current regs.. other than cost cutting!!!

again if car needs work you expect the garage to put the proper parts in..

not oh we changed you battery for a lower power rating cuz it was cheeper & we fitted part-worn tyres instead of new ones!

 
Apache,By the book you are correct. SL has installed main bonding that is non-compliant to the current regs (naughty naughty) ;)

But in the real world he has made it a lot better (and safer) than it was previously (and chances are the client would not want to pay for new cables to be installed).

D.
NOT installed.. more like correctly terminated an inappropriate connection..

as in re terminating a reversed socket outlet!

i.e. you haven't installed the socket or wiring just corrected it back how it should have been. :)

 
I see now - thanks for explaining :)
So thats all sorted..

Its Saturday...

time for a drink ... U want one of KME's beers Apach' me ole Bud...?

Guiness DrinkGuiness Drink

Anyway...

Amateur, (vet) agedly!

After seeing your answers here & them number problems..

I reckon you are a secret NICEIC inspector just checkin up on things?? :^O

 
Had a quick look through the replies and not noticed any mention of the wooden back part of the CU I dont think this will pass PIR CJS

 
Had a quick look through the replies and not noticed any mention of the wooden back part of the CU I dont think this will pass PIR CJS
Now you are opening up another question there CJC! :eek: ; ) :^O :^O

Initially we were only looking at the Bonding issues...

which was one of the reasons I posted It..

I was amazed that what should be a simple connection of

Two wires.. or One looped through wire..

Can be wrong in so many ways! :p :^O

Now if we started discussing the CU....

spose we'd be into Green sleeve not Grn/Yell,

1.0mm CPC in ring NOT 1.5mm

RCD protection?

but I think that would be another thread for another day..

There was also some interesting wiring in the Garage for that matter!!! :_| :^O

 
I'd just like to thank special location for posing the questions and taking the time to 'mark' our answers. Its a great learning tool for us less experienced. So it should be free Guinness all night for SL

 
I'd just like to thank special location for posing the questions and taking the time to 'mark' our answers. Its a great learning tool for us less experienced. So it should be free Guinness all night for SL
Cheers Mikel!Blushing

just a quick one then......

While KME's not looking, grab another one out of his fridge!Guiness Drink

:x

 
I'd just like to thank special location for posing the questions and taking the time to 'mark' our answers. Its a great learning tool for us less experienced. So it should be free Guinness all night for SL
I USED to quite like you X(X(X(X( X(

I`d buy him one, but ALL my dosh seems to be going on topping up the fridge. ?:| ? :| ?:|

 
I USED to quite like you X(X(X(X( X( I`d buy him one, but ALL my dosh seems to be going on topping up the fridge. ?:| ? :| ?:|
Yeah with beer, stella and wine.

Wheres the VODKA ]:)

 
Now, isn`t that the question that I should be asking YOU?????

You slurred your clapping smilies, and you don`t want to do that, someone might mistake it for something else!!!!!!!!!!!!

You alco-admin, you ( if WIZ can be "super-administrator", then I`m sure you can be "alco-admin") :) :) :)

 
Besides, WE can`t afford vodka!!!!!!

Poor Mrs. KME has to drink water, except on Sundays, when she`s allowed one glass of wine !!!!!

We`re not all "rolling in it", I`ll have you know :( :( :(

 
Alco-Admin :eek:

I'll have you know the last time i drank was on my birthday which was nearly 4 months ago. :|

Hardly an Alco am i:D Although a nice double vodka and red bull would go down well right now Pray

 
Alco-Admin :eek: I'll have you know the last time i drank was on my birthday which was nearly 4 months ago. :|

Hardly an Alco am i:D Although a nice double vodka and red bull would go down well right now Pray
Awwwwwwwww......... Bless:z:z:z:z:z

That`s not what your darling hubby said in his pm................Pray] :) ]:)

 
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