No risk assessment or asbestos survey. Is this a norm for an electrical company in England?

[Essex1]

The 4000 people that died in 2014 didn’t contract asbestosis/pneumoconiosis in 2013. You have to look at age, likely exposure and a myriad of other factors to give any WAG.

Companies send people on these short courses, the employee then thinks himself to be a asbestos safety expert.

They are awareness courses! It’s about time they came up with a practical guide to dealing with asbestos course.

They do already. It is called non-licensed asbestos awareness. It allows you to work wth non-licenced asbestos such as flash pads. 

 

[Rob_the_rich]

I used to fit boilers for British Gas as a sub-contractor, about one a week. They gave you training to work on small, non-licenced asbestos jobs, and ppe. However I could not find an insurance company who would insure me to do ANY work with asbestos. I gave up working for BG partly because they expected you to work with the stuff, but also expected you to provide your own insurance.

 

[Evans Electric]

I used to fit boilers for British Gas as a sub-contractor, about one a week. They gave you training to work on small, non-licenced asbestos jobs, and ppe. However I could not find an insurance company who would insure me to do ANY work with asbestos. I gave up working for BG partly because they expected you to work with the stuff, but also expected you to provide your own insurance.

I believe that is because claims against BG will be made in 30 - 40 yrs time  .  I presume they can pass on the workers with their own insurance . 

My mate emailed from Spain to ask me to obtain the address of a contractor we worked for in the late '60s  early 70's , so although no longer trading I presumed his insurance company were claiming damages from them . 

 

[Essex1]

All sub-contractors should hold their own insurance. Is this really up for debate?

 

[steptoe]

ye, but insurance always has exceptions,

mine has among others, hot work, so id assume some have asbestos removal, or working with.

 

[Essex1]

Yes but your rate will be dependant on what insurance you require. 

 

[Blue Duck]

not sure that is the debate....

 

[Rob_the_rich]

All sub-contractors should hold their own insurance. Is this really up for debate?

no, I mentioned it because of the lack of available insurance for sole traders working with asbestos. Irrespective of whether any operative has been on an "awareness" course. Just a heads-up really.

 

[binky]

I would ask why would you even tender for a job where you know asbestos dust is present?  Maybe I have been out the domestic side of things too long. 

in short I didn't tender, this wasn't domestic works, but the Council Chamber, about the same age as the Railway Offices we looked at. The attic space we would have had to run cables through had asbestos stickers everywhere, and a lot of dust. Might not have been asbestos, just general dust, but it actually had me worried, where as the asbestos flash-pad in an old fuse board doesn't bother me much at all.

 

[Sidewinder]

Ohh, I think I would have tendered, with a value and justification that would put the cat among the pigeons big time.

I like doing that because sometimes, just sometimes, it get put in front of someone who knows & cares, and it really does shake the tree such that the pigeons fall out, and the cats have a second chance!  ]

 

[apprentice87]

Ok, i know next to courgette all about asbestos. But i do recall that apparently it is only the one sort. [blue asbestos??] That is dangerous. I also think that a lot of the talk about the risks of asbestos is pidgeon-poop, designed to make money out of people. BUT, given the risks, all precautions have to be worth it. I do not believe that even now they know the extent of the harm caused by the stuff. At one time they said the effects could show up in 20 years, then 30, then 40.. Nobody knows... I know for a fact that the type of cancer caused is quite distinct from the others, but how many people in the past have died as a result of asbestos but it was just put down to "smoking or whatever..

Sending a young kid in to clean up is taking the piss. I once brought an entire factory to a halt because they had a young lad grinding a material composed of nickel and chrome with an angle grinder with no protection. When i went and bollocked the bosses about this they nearly **** themselves BIG style....

The people i have met from the HSE were COMPLETE pillocks. There was a completely **** dust extraction system in another part of the works, and yet the HSE people gave the firm a glowing report because the dust emitted from a chimney contained only a small amount of chrome or whatever it was, yes that is right, it only contained a small amount, because the whole system was completely **** and barely removed any dust at all, leaving the majority for the workers to breath in. The managers were literally SCARED to go in this grinding section, they would refuse to do it or go in there, because they KNEW the dangers and how bad it was in there....

john..

 

[Sidewinder]

No john,

ALL asbestos is potentially deadly.

Full stop, end of.

 

[apprentice87]

Hi Paul, You are right.. Turns out though, that the "blue" sort that i was on about was banned in the uk in 1985, whereas the others, were apparently not banned until 1999 presumably because they thought the other sorts were safe, as did I. Turns out they have changed their minds since then though.

 

We had an ironing board with a section made of asbestos when i was a kid. Me and my sister used to pick it off, it was like a fibrous stuff, like what they had to stick in holes before rawlplugs were invented.. [Wonder if that was asbestos??]

 

My grandad used to bring rolls of asbestos string home from where he worked in Monsanto. It was most useful stuff!!

 

It was probably not safe, but it had nothing on the weedkiller he used to get from there!! I remember it well.. It was called Santobrite, and it turns out that this was; "A fungicide used in the 1960s which is now known to be an animal carcinogen, a teratogen and a mutagen"

 

Oooerrrr.....

 

john...

 

[kerching]

 was like a fibrous stuff, like what they had to stick in holes before rawlplugs were invented.. [Wonder if that was asbestos??]

rawlfix or Rawlset I think....i recall using it. Pretty certain it was asbestos cement based

 

[Evans Electric]

I still hear the old adage today ............  " Oh this stuff is OK  its only asbestolux which is safe "       We were told years ago that to get rid of the real stuff it was shoved into the "Safe" stuff .     

We had to get experts in when we started a new fire alarm job at a big police station .  We were going to drill through the nice wooden door frames for the pyros , we were ordered NOT to do that but to bodge holes in the white , fiberous , asbestos looking ceiling tiles .  

Experts confirmed it was asbestos , we were then told NOT to bodge holes in it , NOT to tell any of the staff there .     I remember asking the expert if we could "Bodge" wearing the usual face masks  ? He said "No way , got to be the proper equipment " 

He then went on to criticise us as we were smokers   (Long time ago)    Something on the lines of " You raised the asbestos query but you  are smokers .

Told him to cucumber off .

 

[Evans Electric]

I believe there is a fund that insurers call upon when there are claims .   You have to name an appropriate company you worked for in the past .  Don't know if my mate in Spain got anything as the next email was from his missus to say he'd gone .

 

[Evans Electric]

My last posts have made me think , wish they hadn't TBH

I have an old post which lists 5 workmates killed at work .

Two down lift shafts,

One fall from  6 floors .

Two electrocuted.

Update :

One cancer.

One asbestosis.

One in remission with luekemia.

One very recent, on cheamo .  .

Bloody hell.

 

[Essex1]

Those are quite shocking statistics. Very powerful. 

 

[Andy_Dandy]

Hi Guys,

Thank you so much Essex1, Evans Electric, Sharpend, Canoeboy, switch10, rapparee, binky, Revved Up Sparky, Blue Duck, SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH, M107, ProDave, Tony S, Rob_the_rich, steptoe, Sidewinder, apprentice87, kerching, MysticalGandy for sharing your knowledge. Thank you for your life saving replies!!!

Today we went to start a new project. I requested an asbestos survey and I did't follow the instruction which involved disturbing the area which typically made of ACM. Boss said that he will inquire for the asbestos survey and also was quiet about my refusal to follow his instruction. The asbestos management survey report was provided the same day - no asbestos. It wasn't an R&D report but since the work was completed in trunking in areas accessed by the public it looked quite sufficient plus just in case I used premium quality P3 face mask all day long. Also I called the company which completed the survey and had a word with them. They said that we would be fine.

We have handful of employees in the company and I surprised that they never voiced asbestos concerns despite the fact that they received awareness training as well as non-licensed asbestos removal training long time ago while working for previous employers.

Until everybody in the company will ask about asbestos survey there will be no progress. Backed by your replies I had one on one conversations with my colleagues to make sure that they will step over their fear and mentioned the 'A' word every time they start a new project. 

Cheers, 

Andy_Dandy

 

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

What annoys me is it appears covering up asbestos is acceptable. I have worked in a few places where the report has said to  plaster over asbestos  based artex & this was carried out.  What chance do we have when drilling out for downlights, even an asbestos survey would not find that. 

I have also been asked to work in an (ex) council house bought by the tenants. All internal walls and ceilings were asbestos sheets. The report was (and a retainer put on the mortgage) to plasterboard over all, no removal. The customer then could not understand why i said you cant then chase/cut or even safely hang a picture, because they had there 'safe' certificate (whatever its called). All these jobs were between 3-6 years ago, have the rules changed ?

I remember using the Rawlfix stuff. I also remember whilst an apprentice in the 70's working for one of Londons largest electrical companies in a BT exchange standing on asbestos lagged pipes in the risers, whilst the stuff crumbled off and got in your hair & clothes, we also used to chuck bits at each other.