Outdoor Sockets / Spurred Off Kitchen

[apprentice87]

and I would say that would be the end of the ringed circuit.

..

Errm, the end of a ring??? That is like saying the end of a rainbow....

Here is a drawing from the regs to do with spurs and sockets

View attachment 8047

john...

 

[Lurch]

So far as i know you can wire up what you like in your garden shed, all NOT notifiable

How did you arrive at this conclusion?

 

[apprentice87]

Hi Lurch,

According to NICEIC

Electrical work carried out in the garden is no longer covered by Part P of the building regulations in England. This means it does not have to be notified to your local building control department.

Part P does still apply in Wales though.

The following is an example of electrical work in the garden which must be notified to local building control (Wales only).

A supply to a detached garage, shed or other outbuilding

A supply to an electric gate or pond pump

Garden lighting

A socket-outlet

How true all this is i have no idea!!!!! Still, here is a link to the NICEIC thing

https://www.niceic.com/www.niceic.com/media/PDF/FactSheet-Garden-A4-4pp.pdf

Might be a load of Radishes though, as i know there is something to do with if your shed gets its supply from the house it is different.. No Idea!!!!! [Glad i am not an electrician!!!]

john...

 

[Doc Hudson]

I interpret this aspect as; If you have a garden with an existing supply to a water feature and you want to add some additional lights around the pond, this extra work in the garden would not be notifiable. But adding a new circuit from the fuse box to supply various items of external power, pond, lights, shed, greenhouse would be notifiable.

Doc H.  

 

[Lurch]

@apprentice87, just to clarify, you are effectively saying that anyone can wire anything up and it is not notifiable as long as it is not connected to a supply?

I'm not sure in what scenario putting power to a shed isn't notifiable, unless I am missing something.

 

[Tony S]

According to NICEIC

john...

Dear god, is that the best advice available?

Since when has the NICEIC taken precedence over the IET?

 

[phil d]

@apprentice87, just to clarify, you are effectively saying that anyone can wire anything up and it is not notifiable as long as it is not connected to a supply?

I'm not sure in what scenario putting power to a shed isn't notifiable, unless I am missing something.

Technically there is a way around it, suppose your shed is just having a couple of lights and sockets and the load isn't that great, you could wire it as normal, but instead of hard wiring back to the house, put it on a plug, that way part P doesn't enter into it. That's one of the reasons there's been such a growth in the sales of those outdoor sockets that come with a length of TRS flex on them and an RCD plug, screw it to wall, bring cable into house, fit RCD and plug it in, there you have it, an outside socket with no need for notification whatsoever.

I did one a while ago, rented house, landlord won't allow any electrical work whatsoever, mate buys shed, we wire shed as normal but fit a caravan type plug to it, short lead from it to house and plugged into the radial that used to feed the immersion heater, no touching house wiring so landlord can't complain, mate gets power in shed, everybody happy.

Not the best scenario I admit, but a radio, a drill and a light and I reckon you're pulling less that 5 Amps.

I did a proper install when my son moved into his council house, separate circuit on CU, DP isolator, armoured to shed and metalclad accessories, it had a wiring inspection last week and the guy doing the work was made up, he said it was the first proper install he'd seen in ages, when he saw the test sheet I'd left in the mains cupboard he was over the moon.

 

[Lurch]

put it on a plug, that way part P doesn't enter into it.

Yes it does, it specifically says that wiring a fixed installation via a plug top doesn't exclude it.

 

[apprentice87]

@apprentice87, just to clarify, you are effectively saying that anyone can wire anything up and it is not notifiable as long as it is not connected to a supply?

I'm not sure in what scenario putting power to a shed isn't notifiable, unless I am missing something.

Ok according to the NICEIC:

Electrical work carried out in the garden is no longer covered by

Part P of the building regulations in England.

This means

it does not have to be notified to your local building

control department.

Part P does still apply in Wales though. The following is an example

of electrical work in the garden which must be notified to local

building control (Wales only).

A supply to a detached garage, shed or other outbuilding

A supply to an electric gate or pond pump

Garden lighting

A socket-outlet

Before starting any work, you must notify your local building

control office and pay the appropriate fee for it to be inspected.

I think that is pretty plain?? What is hard to understand about that?? It clearly states as an example; "A supply to a detached garage, shed or other outbuilding" and it clearly says "Wales only"

Once again, here is the link, read it yourselves...

https://www.niceic.com/www.niceic.com/media/PDF/FactSheet-Garden-A4-4pp.pdf

Dear god, is that the best advice available?

Since when has the NICEIC taken precedence over the IET?

I do not understand?? The subject at hand is part "P" of the building regs. and what is notifiable and what is not. What has that got to do with the IET??

john..

 

[Lurch]

No idea where the NICEIC got that info from, the approved document doesn't say that. Once again, the NICEIC don't make the rules.

 

[Doc Hudson]

Just as a side thought to this, (Phil's comment re caravan lead made me think), Anyone can do whatever wiring they like inside a caravan, be it 230v or 12v supply stuff. There is no notification rules or any legal obligations about any aspect. Yet a caravan is effectively a metal shed on wheels that can be left connect to a mains supply in a field, where any other third party, (children pets etc), could potentially make contact with its metal structure and/or parts of its DIY electrical work . Which could be connected to a 10A or 16A RCD protected supply. Looking from that perspective a shed is an easy safe option.

Doc H.

 

[steptoe]

Ok according to the NICEIC:

Electrical work carried out in the garden is no longer covered by

Part P of the building regulations in England.

This means

it does not have to be notified to your local building

control department.

Part P does still apply in Wales though. The following is an example

of electrical work in the garden which must be notified to local

building control (Wales only).

A supply to a detached garage, shed or other outbuilding

A supply to an electric gate or pond pump

Garden lighting

A socket-outlet

Before starting any work, you must notify your local building

control office and pay the appropriate fee for it to be inspected.

I think that is pretty plain?? What is hard to understand about that?? It clearly states as an example; "A supply to a detached garage, shed or other outbuilding" and it clearly says "Wales only"

Once again, here is the link, read it yourselves...

https://www.niceic.com/www.niceic.com/media/PDF/FactSheet-Garden-A4-4pp.pdf

I do not understand?? The subject at hand is part "P" of the building regs. and what is notifiable and what is not. What has that got to do with the IET??

john..

Jaysus FK John

What part of 

The niceic don't make the rules is it you don't understand?????

And yes,

I had the exact same conversation with a client last week, substitute john for an expletive,!!!!!;

 

[apprentice87]

Hi Steps and Lurch,

Yes, i agree with you both, and i know full well that the NICEIC do not make the rules and are basically just fraudsters, but no idea where they got the info from, as i cannot find it in the building regs "approved document" thingy, and yes, the NICEIC are basically just a scam, but i wonder where they did get the info...

Perhaps one of you that are members of them could ask???

I know one thing, given that local authorities seem to think that there are no schemes but NICEIC, and that they are close to god like status, and that they DO make the rules, it would be a right laugh to confront a building inspector with the leaflet i gave the link to!!

Wonder what would happen?? Would spoil their day i know that!!

john..

 

[phil d]

Just as a side thought to this, (Phil's comment re caravan lead made me think), Anyone can do whatever wiring they like inside a caravan, be it 230v or 12v supply stuff. There is no notification rules or any legal obligations about any aspect. Yet a caravan is effectively a metal shed on wheels that can be left connect to a mains supply in a field, where any other third party, (children pets etc), could potentially make contact with its metal structure and/or parts of its DIY electrical work . Which could be connected to a 10A or 16A RCD protected supply. Looking from that perspective a shed is an easy safe option.

Doc H.

Exactly, hence my point about putting a shed on a plug, and it can be done, a shed isn't classed as a permanent structure unless it is on a concrete base and is bolted to it, had this over a planning argument, some guy saying you needed planning for a shed over a certain size, you didn't! If it was secured to a concrete base then it was a permanent structure and needed permission, if it wasn't then it didn't need permission any more than you'd need planning to put up a large tent in the garden.

The problem is that a lot of "clever" people are not capable of working the laws and regulations, and this is where the problems arise.

Take the above example, a shed isn't classed as a permanent structure, it's much the same as a caravan, so it doesn't need planning,you don't need planning to keep a touring caravan in your garden, now if you don't need planning then there are lots of other regs that don't apply either, you just need to know the questions to ask.

Lets be honest, most council's don't understand all the regs and just blindly follow what they are told, or believe to be correct, which can often be found to be incorrect.

 

[Murdoch]

^^ re sheds, some do in fact need planning permission. Where I live, the deeds for the entire estate state that any garden structure needs planning....all the borough, you need planning permission if you make your drive larger by 15 sq meters, you need planning unless the finished surface is permeable

 

[Doc Hudson]

^^ re sheds, some do in fact need planning permission. Where I live, the deeds for the entire estate state that any garden structure needs planning....all the borough, you need planning permission if you make your drive larger by 15 sq meters, you need planning unless the finished surface is permeable

That sounds a bit like some private small plots I know of, approx. 15 or 20 properties, off a couple of cul-de-sacs, with automatic gate across entrance road, (though gate opens without any code entry, gate is just to make it look posh). All residents have to pay toward the upkeep of some communal grass land in font of the properties. No one is allowed to erect any garden structures, or put up TV aerial, (all aerials in loft), or satellite dish on outside of buildings. All about keeping an 'exclusive' appearance to the plots.  Though this isn't council permission, its some private association who manage it all. So you could do DIY electrics but not put up a 4'x6' shed.

Doc H.

 

[Murdoch]

That sounds a bit like some private small plots I know of, approx. 15 or 20 properties, off a couple of cul-de-sacs, with automatic gate across entrance road, (though gate opens without any code entry, gate is just to make it look posh). All residents have to pay toward the upkeep of some communal grass land in font of the properties. No one is allowed to erect any garden structures, or put up TV aerial, (all aerials in loft), or satellite dish on outside of buildings. All about keeping an 'exclusive' appearance to the plots.  Though this isn't council permission, its some private association who manage it all. So you could do DIY electrics but not put up a 4'x6' shed.

Doc H.

Not a small private estate .. about 300 houses built between 1976 and 1982..... not exclusive. Around here, "permitted" development rights have been withdrawn in large areas too...

 

[phil d]

That sounds a bit like some private small plots I know of, approx. 15 or 20 properties, off a couple of cul-de-sacs, with automatic gate across entrance road, (though gate opens without any code entry, gate is just to make it look posh). All residents have to pay toward the upkeep of some communal grass land in font of the properties. No one is allowed to erect any garden structures, or put up TV aerial, (all aerials in loft), or satellite dish on outside of buildings. All about keeping an 'exclusive' appearance to the plots.  Though this isn't council permission, its some private association who manage it all. So you could do DIY electrics but not put up a 4'x6' shed.

Doc H.

A bit of snobbery with places like that, a mate's daughter bought a place some years ago, they were buying a new house and chose this particular one as it had space at the side of the house to park their caravan, thereby saving them storage costs, so they brought it home. That's when the trouble started, they were politely informed by the "residents group"  that parking caravans was not permitted, it was in the rules apparently, neither was garden gnomes, satellite dishes or older scruffy vehicles! Non of this was pointed out when they bought the property, there was a case on tv recently when a guy was told he couldn't park his works van on his own drive! Personally I couldn't live somewhere like that, I think it's some kind of plastic snobbery, the irony of it is that usually these people who think they are somebody haven't got 2 pennies to rub together.

 

[steptoe]

A bit of snobbery with places like that, a mate's daughter bought a place some years ago, they were buying a new house and chose this particular one as it had space at the side of the house to park their caravan, thereby saving them storage costs, so they brought it home. That's when the trouble started, they were politely informed by the "residents group"  that parking caravans was not permitted, it was in the rules apparently, neither was garden gnomes, satellite dishes or older scruffy vehicles! Non of this was pointed out when they bought the property, there was a case on tv recently when a guy was told he couldn't park his works van on his own drive! Personally I couldn't live somewhere like that, I think it's some kind of plastic snobbery, the irony of it is that usually these people who think they are somebody haven't got 2 pennies to rub together.

ah,

a lot of that actually comes from deeds of covenant,

whereby in times long since past, the estate owner may have sold the land with a covenant that no goods carriages were to be resting on the land [for instance] or words to such effect, this was to ensure that no one would purchase the land for trading purposes,

and, unfortunately such covenants still exist, there are many variations of them, and not always easy to have removed.

my friend has some land, 6 acres actually, he bought it cheap, as there is actually a covenant on it which prohibits any form of habitation whatsoever, you cant even overnight camp on it, although he has apparently almost caught a few people doing it, sadly just after they had left,  :innocent

the other side of it is

NIMBY

this country is full of arseholes!!!!!

they whinge like fk if they cant get their own way, but then as soon as someone else wants something they whinge even more,!!!!!

 

[apprentice87]

There are TWO causes of this sort of thing. 1, When planning was granted for the construction of the houses, conditions might have been attached, OR, the other, as Steps says, covenants...

Now, if you breach a covenant, all that will happen, is that the beneficiary of the thing might get a court order to enforce it. Now, what if the beneficiary is no longer alive?? Well, the covenant runs with the land, but they are often extinct, in fact there are many instances when they can be safely ignored.

There is one that exists related to the ground my house is on. It stated that the purchaser of the land from Viscount Tredegar, had to erect a fence, but leave access for the peasants to get to a well!! Obviously extinct, [unless pikeys turn up and find the well i suppose!!] I had a house once, that had been built on land owned by the church and a solicitor solemnly advised me that i would not be able to "keep a pubilc house nor a brothel" [Uh, do not want that house then!!]

It is actually possible to ignore any covenants and to insure against any consequences, it is a very common thing..

Something to watch out for, is councils trying to "hide behind" covenants. When i was sorting out planning for my shed, [it was permitted development] they tried all kinds of lies and obstructiveness, including telling me that; "There might be restrictive covenants" I told them, so tango'd what, the council are not the beneficiary of them so courgette off!!"

Get a copy of your land cert [£3 from HM land registry, NOT NOT NOT the private firms that PRETEND to be the land registry and pass themselves off as such] and see what is on there!!!

Got to be fair, if there ARE planning restrictions, i have no idea where where these will be recorded, They could be as a covenant with the council as beneficiary, or they could be in the form of a charge in the charges section of the cert. [Both would be in the same section anyway] Planning restrictions might not even be on the cert for all i know, for all i know, the restrictions might only apply to the builder, who would then covenant with you.. [that would be on the cert..]

john..