Part P and confusion from course provider

[angelboy]

I have no previous electrical experience but wanted to complete a full house installation for my self build.

I understand that I can do this but would need to get the LA to check and sign off the work.

To try and help understand a little more I enquired to complete a Domestic Installer Part P course (with the local college) and was told that I didn't need to be an Electrician to take the course. They told me that they would teach a small amount of practical but focus on the regulations. After this course they told me that I could take a Installation and testing course that would qualify me to enter residential dwellings and test the electrics.

To comply with most 'competent persons' schemes it seems that they only accept qualified electrician which means that the courses I've enquired about seem pointless.

I don't want a career as an electrician and have no intentions of spending years on C&G courses. I'm happy to work on my own and family houses with guidance initially.

I can't imagine that the basics have changed for many many years, only the regulations to comply will have changed. If I understand these regulations then the practice and practical aspect for simple house circuits must be fairly easy to get a grasp of.

Should I take the Part P Domestic installer course?

What other 'positive' advice do you have?

 

[m4tty]

If you took the part p course you would still need to pass 17th Edition Wiring Regs (C&G2382) then apply to a scheme (nic/elecsa/napit/others) then be assessed (

 

[Taffny]

You can do the work yourself but you have to inform you Local Area Building control prior to starting work. You will need to inform them of your competency with electrics.

They will make a decision based on your skill level as to how much of the installation work they want to see, based on your description I would imagine it will be alot.

They will charge you accordingly, but will sign off the work if they deem it good enough, if not they will inform you of the remedial action required before it is signed off.

It is a big undertaking as there are tons of wiring regs and building regs to trip you up if you are not aware of what they are, your LABC should be able to give you some guidance.

Good luck if you go for it.

 

[PC Electrics]

"no previous electrical experience" - I'd say you're not a suitable candidate for the DI course. It's not really designed to take a novice and turn them into an electrician.

On top of that , the combined cost of a DI course, 17th course and scheme membership comes in at about

 

[angelboy]

Thanks for the responses, all food for thought.

Just a few additional questions that may be more pertinent to my situation.

How much would it cost to become fully qualified in domestic installations?

How much would you say the tools to do this would cost?

How long, in the shortest time possible, would it take to be able to get qualified?

------------------

How much would you charge for a 400sqm new build?

(6 bed, triple 2 storey garage, pool, several outbuildings, CCTV, many outside lights, electric gates, hard wired network, some smart features)

------------------

I'm assuming quite a substantial difference in costs but then again, maybe not.

I am happy to learn a new skill so a certain amount of cost within is valued and any large amounts of assets will no doubt have a resale value.

With regards material costs and a sparks getting cheaper than I can, first of all they'll still be a margin if the sparks hold a credit account so the saving will be more than likely not passed on and secondly the few people I've spoke to simply use screwfix. Maybe you can correct me and give me some examples of suppliers and material cost comparisons.

I have no specific time frame to complete the property so spending 4 weeks or even 8 weeks to first fix is not a problem.

I'll call my LA later today and see what they have to say, so I'll report back then.

 

[ianmacd]

You will have needed to engage LABC WRT the build anyway so its unliekly they will need extra notification but best to check. Tools wise, wou will need a basic toolset and a meter (or multiple meters if its not an MFT). These will be the best part of

 

[Doc Hudson]

Welcome to the forum angelboy. 'Should I take the Part P Domestic installer course?'. As you say that you are not looking for a career in electrical work, personally I think you would be wasting your money. As PC electrics and Ianmacd have already said, do you know any local electricians who could supervise your work, of course some sort of payment would need to be agreed? What part of the country are you in? Maybe one of our members could take you under their wing to make sure you get you work done complying with all current regulations and have a safe and fully tested installation as well?

Doc H.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

How much would you charge for a 400sqm new build?

(6 bed, triple 2 storey garage, pool, several outbuildings, CCTV, many outside lights, electric gates, hard wired network, some smart features)

If I understand these regulations then the practice and practical aspect for simple house circuits must be fairly easy to get a grasp of.

are these referring to the same job?

simple house circuits ?

6 bed, triple 2 storey garage, pool, several outbuildings, CCTV, many outside lights, electric gates, hard wired network, some smart features?



:|

Your question...

How much would you charge for a 400sqm new build?

Not wishing to be rude, but that is about as hard to answer as ringing me garage to asking how much does a 5 seater car cost...

or ringing sainsburys saying how much do I need to spend to feed a family of seven?

Would need a lot more spec to even consider costings?

Room dimensions likely cable run lengths?

Number of circuits?

Number of points required?

How & where lights are switched from?

Cables concealed or run on surface?

Solid or wooden floors?

Power rating of any fixed appliances?

Distances and required loading for outbuildings?

etc..

etc..

etc..

welcome to the forum BTW!

Guinness

 

[Lurch]

I see what's going on here, OP asks a question, OP receives a different answer to what they want from many people, OP keeps asking until 1 person says their idea is good, OP leaves happy, we all wonder why we bother.

 

[ianmacd]

Who said it was a good idea?

 

[Lurch]

Who said it was a good idea?

No-one, yet.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Thanks for the responses, all food for thought.Just a few additional questions that may be more pertinent to my situation.

How much would it cost to become fully qualified in domestic installations?

How much would you say the tools to do this would cost?

How long, in the shortest time possible, would it take to be able to get qualified?

I have no previous electrical experience but wanted to complete a full house installation for my self build. I understand that I can do this but would need to get the LA to check and sign off the work.

To try and help understand a little more I enquired to complete a Domestic Installer Part P course (with the local college) and was told that I didn't need to be an Electrician to take the course. They told me that they would teach a small amount of practical but focus on the regulations. After this course they told me that I could take a Installation and testing course that would qualify me to enter residential dwellings and test the electrics.

To comply with most 'competent persons' schemes it seems that they only accept qualified electrician which means that the courses I've enquired about seem pointless.

I don't want a career as an electrician and have no intentions of spending years on C&G courses. I'm happy to work on my own and family houses with guidance initially.

I can't imagine that the basics have changed for many many years, only the regulations to comply will have changed. If I understand these regulations then the practice and practical aspect for simple house circuits must be fairly easy to get a grasp of.

Should I take the Part P Domestic installer course?

What other 'positive' advice do you have?

Back to your training and qualifying points:--

This is a bit long but you raise a lot of very serious points, which I think need to be fully addressed....

1/

You are correct that you do not have to be a qualified electrician to wire your own home. But your council LABC will required notifying and you will have to pay for your work to be tested and certified.

The exact amount will depend upon you local authority area and they may have a sliding scale depending upon the size of the installation.

(also there are fines approx

 

[angelboy]

Not wishing to be rude, but that is about as hard to answer as ringing me garage to asking how much does a 5 seater car cost...

I understand to provide a detailed quote you'd need to know a lot more detail but I'm looking for rule of thumb estimations, that's why I gave a general list and size.

I wouldn't say I'm planning top end or bottom end but somewhere mid-priced.

 

[angelboy]

I see what's going on here, OP asks a question, OP receives a different answer to what they want from many people, OP keeps asking until 1 person says their idea is good, OP leaves happy, we all wonder why we bother.

I ask questions to get a better understanding of what course of action I'm willing or prepared to take. I don't just listen to one person, or even a group until I'm satisfied that I'M making the best choice.

In this case your judgement is wrong.

 

[angelboy]

Back to your training and qualifying points:--This is a bit long but you raise a lot of very serious points, which I think need to be fully addressed....

:coffee

Thanks for the time you took in replying.

I think some valid points.

-------------------

My reasons and eventual motivation to learn whatever is required to complete this project is budget and not time (to do the job or to learn to do the job).

The price estimations then become pretty important. If you say that 'generally' I'm talking

 

[ianmacd]

The part P course covers lots of the relevent parts to the other parts of the building regs. and that in itself can take a week.

Being a sparks is a skilled job and needs the appropriate time spent learing the trade. In many ways its more skilled and dangeros than gas fitters (not wishing to devalue any plumbers) but hardly anyone would consider putting in a gas pipe themselves. Given no previous experience then any of the 'short' courses may not give you enough background and/or experience to allow you to do this work.

Installing is only one step and possibly the easiest. The Design, Inspection and testing is where the experience really counts. That same experience is needed when tracking down faults too. For example, a loose neutral on a shower switch may not show up with a continuity tester but could easly start a fire.

Since this is where the most valuable things you have will reside (i.e. your family), I would not advise trying to cut corners as you may live to regret it and if you are really unlucky you may not.

I do not wish to be harsh but given the lack of experience, I really think you should get someone in to design, test & inspect and you can assist with the install. Taking it down to numbers, you have to remember the average sparks probably has a large collection of tools to assist in installations that may be required too. I would not be supprised if the ave. sparks tools were over

 

[Doc Hudson]

I don't want to waste any local sparkies time by getting them to quote - It's irresponsible for me to expect working people to spend hours pricing my job, and to be fair, I'd imagined they'd give me an estimation prior to a fixed price anyway.

I understand it common knowledge for tradesmen to expect to quote or tender for jobs without any guarantee of securing the contract. This is not irresponsible expectations it is standard business practice. The point is to specify what you want your trades person to quote for. In todays climate there may be a lot of electricians who are willing to quote for design, supervise installation and test without any supply or installation. You mention speaking to people who use Srewfix, are these electricians or builders? have you asked them about design only quotes?

Doc H.

 

[angelboy]

I agree with both posts.

Maybe I could arrange for a design and test quote, great idea.

Since my last posts I've spoken to the LA who confused me somewhat. They said that they require a 'competent person' to carry out the work. He said I could do my own work but would need to apply for building regs but then then he said he'd want an electrician to do the work....?!?! I must have got a bad one on the phone....I'll leave it till after the 1st when the new prices come in.

I also called Elecsa who told me the minimum requirements are the DI Part P and the 17th Edition then a half day assessment. After completing the Part P I can have an assessment just as long as I do the 17th Edition within the year but I wouldn't think I'd be ready anyway.

Does this sound more plausible?

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

I understand to provide a detailed quote you'd need to know a lot more detail but I'm looking for rule of thumb estimations, that's why I gave a general list and size. I wouldn't say I'm planning top end or bottom end but somewhere mid-priced.

A quote comprising no detail is worthless

you may as well pick any figure yourself!

The rule of thumbs I follow are.......

• Identify what and how many appliances are needed..
  (electric showers [yes/no], electric cookers [yes/no], Immersion heaters [yes/no], electric underfloor heating [yes/no] electric wall heaters [yes/no] lighting.... sockets.... etc.. etc.. )
  
• Calculate the load requirements of said appliances..
  
• Select protective devices required..
  
• Consider installation methods and rating factors that influence cable capacities..
  
• Work out cable sizes appropriate for installation methods and protective devices..
  
• Check for compliance with volt drop and disconnection times..
  

THEN Work out how many individual circuits you need to divide the installation into to meet all of the above AND minimise dangers from a single fault..

Anyone who gives an estimate without assessing ALL of the above points (and more).. is about as much use as a chocolate teapot!!!

(Mind you... you could probably eat a chocolate teapot...?

so thats not quite a good illustration...)

NO such thing as a rule of thumb estimate IMHO...

Two identical houses either side of a semi detached one may be

 

[Apache]

I love threads like this. Suddenly everyone becomes a whole lot less friendly.

1. You can 100% legally do your own electrics if you notify the council's BCO and if it's a new build then you might not have to pay any extra money. They will send someone around to inspect your work at pre-determined stages and have it tested at the end. IF it complies then you will get a completion certificate.

2. Bog standard house wiring isn't that hard and of you buy a copy of the 17th Regs and the On Site Guide you can read the relevant sections on cable length/volt drop/floor area on a ring circuit etc. On the one hand we have people moaning that domestic installation work is boring and all the same, then you need a degree to understand it all?! Slightly paradoxical.

3. The building regs are all available free online and you can familiarise yourself with them.

4. You can get some decent 2nd hand testers off places like ebay or the auction site here. I have an insulation resistance/continuity tester, RCD tester and Earth Loop tester. None were over