Part P and confusion from course provider

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

I agree with both posts.Maybe I could arrange for a design and test quote, great idea.

Since my last posts I've spoken to the LA who confused me somewhat. They said that they require a 'competent person' to carry out the work. He said I could do my own work but would need to apply for building regs but then then he said he'd want an electrician to do the work....?!?! I must have got a bad one on the phone....I'll leave it till after the 1st when the new prices come in.

Approved document P give details of the 'THREE' notification processes to your LABC...

You can downloaded it here:-

http://www.talk.electricianforum.co.uk/downloads.php?do=file&id=21

Pages 11&12 section c

paragraphs 1.24, 1.25, 1.26, 1.27

give the details for a DIY person undertaking electrical work!

BUT...

Many LABC do not want the hassle or organising an electrician to test and inspect your work..

They would rather you get someone yourself and just send them the CERTS and/or compliance notification!

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

I love threads like this. Suddenly everyone becomes a whole lot less friendly. 1. You can 100% legally do your own electrics if you notify the council's BCO and if it's a new build then you might not have to pay any extra money. They will send someone around to inspect your work at pre-determined stages and have it tested at the end. IF it complies then you will get a completion certificate.

This is a red herring as many councils do have sliding scale charges for the different aspects of the electical work...

The building regs approval fees are just for the NON part P element of the works..

Note from our LABC

The fees assume that any electrical works undertaken aredone so by a suitably qualified person or organisation

accredited with a relevant

 

[Andy™]

I also called Elecsa who told me the minimum requirements are the DI Part P and the 17th Edition then a half day assessment. After completing the Part P I can have an assessment just as long as I do the 17th Edition within the year but I wouldn't think I'd be ready anyway.

sorry, but, if you dont know enough of 7671 to be able to pass the exam, then you do not have enough knowledge of 7671 to be able to carry out work to the regs.

just because Elecsa say you must have 17th ed within one year doesnt mean you get away without knowing anything. the point of this is for those who know the regs well to be able to pass assessment and take 17th later. not to allow people who dont know the regs to join and then do a course.

 

[Andy™]

I am confident that my electrical work would pass the building inspection.

id say your work would pass inspection without any issues, and probably be better than some of the 'sparks' on here

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

2. Bog standard house wiring isn't that hard and of you buy a copy of the 17th Regs and the On Site Guide you can read the relevant sections on cable length/volt drop/floor area on a ring circuit etc. On the one hand we have people moaning that domestic installation work is boring and all the same, then you need a degree to understand it all?! Slightly paradoxical.

never-ever-ever moaned about any electrical work being boring... :|

Not all DIYers want to wire the house in bell wire. Some take their time and do a decent job of it. We have all seen the work of some of these so called 'electricians' on here!

ALL aspects of building work are easy... if you know what you are doing...

Experience doesn't come from reading books though..

it is from experience working in any trade or proffession...

Lack of experience is seen day in day out with keen DIY's missing obvious points early on in a building project causing problems later...

Consider the example of the shower room heating thread the other day..

http://www.talk.electricianforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=11815&highlight=shower+heater

No doubt it was easy to fit out the shower room at first..

probably saved some money along the way..

it is safe...

BUT the design does NOT do what the customer wants!!!!

and is now going to probably cost more than would have been necessary with a better design!

It is easy to stick a light on a wall or ceiling....

But I lose track of how many times I come across jobs where consideration of where you are going to switch it from was completely missed out of the equation! :_| :_|

It may on occasion be better to run some low voltage control via contactors or relays to meet the customers requirements..

rather than just running from fuse box to switch to light!

I cannot think of any quotes I have done for any significant work where I haven't asked the customer what I consider to be a basic question..

But the customer goes.. "ohhh I never thought of that!"

DIY wiring is possible, is legal and can be done safely compliant with all regulations..

But a professional evaluation of a situation can often save time, money and/or provide a better overall solution to a problem..

Especially with something such as full rewire/new build!

Another point for consideration:-

If the DIY person has another full time day job there can be complications keeping up with other trades timescales...

i.e. you cannot put your cables in till some wall and ceiling stud work is in place...

But if you are too slow the plasterers are boarding it all up before you have run your cables...

OR you are paying other trades to hang around or make second visits to allow you to get more cable from the wholesalers

cuz you ran out or miss estimated some materials or how long you needed to fix it.....

Again it is NOT hard to do.. but I assume you agree those with more years of experience are more able to do these planning organising, scheduling of work materials, prioritising tasks to compliment other trades as second nature better than the novice DIY electrician.

These are the bits that the books cannot teach you!

A professional acting as mentor, guide project manager can ease a lot of headaches...

(you see it time and again on these DIY home improvement programs... :_| )

If time is no problem and other trades can work around your timescales

I don't doubt it would be a very fulfilling and rewarding project..

BUT either way you do need to fully assess and plan the project correctly!

:coffee

 

[batty]

How much would you charge for a 400sqm new build?

(6 bed, triple 2 storey garage, pool, several outbuildings, CCTV, many outside lights, electric gates, hard wired network, some smart features)

I would charge 50k because if you can afford that lot you can probably pay that much to have it installed I honestly think somebody is taking the p..s here.

 

[sellers]

Heres my take on this. Your talking about a 6 bed large house with all the trimmings. If you want a decent job doing, pay the money for an honest spark. You'll get bigger, better ideas and areas where you can save money. Have you thought about PV Panels?

Every credit for wanting to do it yourself but to do this LABC want you to be a competent person which with no experience you are not. Even sitting in the class room learning all the theory does not make you competant. LABC notification is more for the electricians that are qualified but not part p registered.

Finnaly if you want a price for the work, I'll take a visit if your within 50miles of blackpool

 

[initforthemoney]

I smell a rat.

 

[angelboy]

How much would you charge for a 400sqm new build?(6 bed, triple 2 storey garage, pool, several outbuildings, CCTV, many outside lights, electric gates, hard wired network, some smart features)

I would charge 50k because if you can afford that lot you can probably pay that much to have it installed I honestly think somebody is taking the p..s here.

See, comments like this is the MAIN reason I'd prefer to learn and do it myself! Thanks for proving a point, I wondered when a jealous remark might surface.

It still amazes me that some trades can't seem to price a job without seeing what you drive or how big your house is first.

There's a reason I can attempt to build of a certain size in the first place is spotting the dodgy people and making sure they don't get my money!

 

[angelboy]

I smell a rat.

What do comments like this imply?

Why don't you ask me a straight question instead of judging me by your standards?

 

[angelboy]

[quote name='Andy

 

[angelboy]

I love threads like this. Suddenly everyone becomes a whole lot less friendly.

I know that asking question like I do seems to threaten people and I understand crowd/group mentality and the fear of speaking out against your peers. Thanks!

Rather than tell me why I can't do something, which doesn't make want to push less (funny that) I'd find it satisfying, refreshing even, telling me how I can do something, even if it carries some wise words of caution.

I am appreciative of all the posters that have explained some details that have made me question how or even if my proposals are possible. I'm still not 100% either way though.

 

[Badger]

starting point is to get an electrician to doo the works if you know nothing about electrics, electricity can be dangerous and can also kill if not handled with the respect it deserves, if you would like to get into learning about electrics, look at going to college and taking the city and guilds qualification.

 

[Doc Hudson]

See, comments like this is the MAIN reason I'd prefer to learn and do it myself! Thanks for proving a point, I wondered when a jealous remark might surface.It still amazes me that some trades can't seem to price a job without seeing what you drive or how big your house is first.

There's a reason I can attempt to build of a certain size in the first place is spotting the dodgy people and making sure they don't get my money!

I don't know of any trades that can price work without seeing the job or plans for the job and be given a clear specification from the customer. As you have given neither I am not sure you have proved anything. Anyone can pluck a figure out of the air, I can offer

 

[angelboy]

starting point is to get an electrician to doo the works if you know nothing about electrics, electricity can be dangerous and can also kill if not handled with the respect it deserves, if you would like to get into learning about electrics, look at going to college and taking the city and guilds qualification.

Would you say the City & Guilds the only route?

I don't agree with the fact that some of these college courses are 1 day a week and can take 2 years! Maybe alright for school leavers but I couldn't do it that way. For that reason I have to consider what other ways there are that condense the timescale but still teach the relevant information.

Do these condensed courses not teach the same information that the C&G teach?

 

[Doc Hudson]

Do these condensed courses not teach the same information that the C&G teach?

Only on a very diluted skimmed off the surface level, a 5 day course only has 'x' hours, a college course has more hours at college, and more time in-between for the 'homework' and 'project' work. As the C&G and colleges are all business who want to make money, if they could cram more courses in faster to make more money I think they would? The old phrases 'you cannot put a quart into a pint pot' and 'If it seems to good to be true it probably is too good to be true'.

Doc H.

 

[Andy™]

Do these condensed courses not teach the same information that the C&G teach?

iirc, the 'short course' was designed more for those who are electricians that qualified years ago, and dont have a recognised qualification. but then everyone jumped onto the course and can now be a sparky in a week

 

[angelboy]

I don't know of any trades that can price work without seeing the job or plans for the job and be given a clear specification from the customer........... I never employ anyone to undertake work for me without ensuring we have discussed the job fully .......... I would be interested to hear of which trades have already given you a valid price from the limited details given?

I agree and I wouldn't expect anyone to price the work from the basic information I've provided.

I agree, I would never employ someone without discussing the job fully.

I haven't asked for anyone to provide me with a quotes just general electrical rules of thumbs to help me decide my best course of action.

 

[Lurch]

See, comments like this is the MAIN reason I'd prefer to learn and do it myself! Thanks for proving a point, I wondered when a jealous remark might surface.

I'm quite surprised at that remark as well TBH. If that's your main reason for wanting to do it yourself though you are misguided. Surely you can get a few quotes, find some electricians who come recommended from friends\family\workmates etc... and figure out for yourself if any of them are taking the **** pricewise. If not, then I don;t see how doing it yourself will save you anything as you'll end up getting shafted somewhere else.

I see plenty of people think that doing things themselves will automatically save money but it doesn;t, always for various reasons. Also, unless you have actually done any electrical work before and have a good understanding of all the products available then I can only see your property ending up mediocre with some odd quirks or missing features that an experienced electrician would be able to expertly install neatly and conventionally.

It still amazes me that some trades can't seem to price a job without seeing what you drive or how big your house is first.

I could only give an estimate, and an estimate on this scale would be OTT and literally plucked out of the air. I could give you an actual price, but regional variations would also have an effect and I don;t know where you are. To give an actual price I would need plans, specifications, measurements, material lists etc... None of it is just straight forward 'a switch is

 

[angelboy]

Only on a very diluted skimmed off the surface level, a 5 day course only has 'x' hours, a college course has more hours at college, and more time in-between for the 'homework' and 'project' work. As the C&G and colleges are all business who want to make money, if they could cram more courses in faster to make more money I think they would? The old phrases 'you cannot put a quart into a pint pot' and 'If it seems to good to be true it probably is too good to be true'.Doc H.

[quote name='Andy