Part P and confusion from course provider

[Lurch]

I have worked on several 5\6 bedroom properties with plenty in them, one with a pool. They all had a single phase supply, I think the one with a pool and several outbuildings is even limited to 60 or 80A IIRC.

 

[Apache]

Angelboys example is not a typical domestic property..How many of the average domestic properties do you know with Pool..

& several outbuildings.. Your comparison of percentages is likely to be out IMHO.

I have given you the example of dairy farms running a lot of gear in multiple buildings - some quite distant. Some of the gear has high power requirements.

I have worked on several 5\6 bedroom properties with plenty in them, one with a pool. They all had a single phase supply, I think the one with a pool and several outbuildings is even limited to 60 or 80A IIRC.

:C

 

[Voltimax]

Patch, my dog needs an operation, but you vets are too expensive, is there a 3-4 day course I can do and what cutlery will I need to perform such an operation?

I'm not being rude with that question above by the way and certainly not trying to upset anyone, but do you see my point?

 

[Apache]

Patch, my dog needs an operation, but you vets are too expensive, is there a 3-4 day course I can do and what cutlery will I need to perform such an operation?I'm not being rude with that question above by the way and certainly not trying to upset anyone, but do you see my point?

I sort of do. Thankfully what you suggest is illegal for good reason. But you can buy the gear easily on the net, hopefully not the drugs?!

I will help you to clip nails or squeeze anal **** etc because with minimal training you can do it.

I'm not convinced that most domestic wiring is very hard. Maybe it all goes over my head? I don't know. A few simple calculations required but we're not wiring a hotel or a farm or a large factory.

 

[Andy™]

it was only a minor op to the dog - not heart transplant. surely anyone could do that?!

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

I have given you the example of dairy farms running a lot of gear in multiple buildings - some quite distant. Some of the gear has high power requirements. :C

I don't doubt for one minute that many large properties manage with a single phase supply... that said ...

I have also seen some very small domestic properties blow their main fuse! :_|

And as I said before you do need Angelboys actual load specifications or you cannot assume anything!

And I also agree, as you say "If all goes to Plan wiring is easy"..

(pulling in cables, screwing back boxes, connecting accessories,

is not that hard.. many no-brain cable monkeys pull & fix cables day in day out)

But if it is planed wrong in the first place there can be some quite expensive or hazardous mistakes made...

i.e. If wiring is so easy for a complete beginner, opening quote of thread,

"I have no previous electrical experience"

you would IMHO find the black museum was an empty forum..

http://www.talk.electricianforum.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=33

ohh... but no... its not!

And for that matter half the questions we get on the forums in general would never get asked!

Or looking at it another way...

It is easy to administer medicines to your pet.....

We have done it numerous times with various pets over the years..

But..

The specialist knowledge is in knowing what is the actual correct medicine to administer in the first place!.. (AKA planing the job!)

As you mention we have no idea what other energy sources the project will include.....

Some such as the Solar PV stuff may have to be a registered contractor with specific installation requirements anyway...

Bit of a bum if its consideration is forgotten on the initial planing! :|

Like many things in life hindsight is a wonderful tool..

It is not until you have made mistakes on a project that you realise you didn't quite understand as much as you thought you did in the first place..

We have all done it with various areas and skills (not just electrical)...

But when there are people who have wired/rewired numerous existing properties and/or new builds...

It can be good to listen to their experience and wisdom.

Not as some of the posts on this thread suggest...

they are just trying to over complicate matters, to over hype their electrical knowledge for some greater glory, to claim extra money for their expertise...

Which is IMHO just daft!

:|

 

[sparkyt]

i went to college for 3 years when i did my apprentiship. two lads on the same course passed the exams and asessments with distinctions. one was a postman and the other worked in a clothes shop. i bumped into the postman not long ago on a job i was wiring the heating system for the plumber. He had set up on his own, had all the gear was fully quialified and yet he was asking me very basic questions and had absolutly no idea what he was doing and openly admitted it. The point im trying to get to is that there can be no subsitute for on the job training and experiance. i would say that 95% of what i know has been learnt on the job and not in a classroom. You could teach a blind monkey to pass a course. This wouldnt make them any more competant at electrical installation. Please dont just go at this yourself for the sake of saving a few quid as you may live to regret it. The installation and types of features you describe require stacks of knowlage and understanding . The project im currently working on (5 bed,stables,small pool, 3 storey) is now in the 2nd fix stage and the client has already spent approx

 

[angelboy]

In general then and hypothetically speaking, how many of you would either just plan the job so that someone (me) could do the job and have the LA sign off the work

or

plan, install the tricky bits, test the system but allow someone (again, me!) to labour for them (pulling cables, fitting boxes etc)

&

how would this effect your price?..... generally speaking....I'm not asking for a quote before anyone wants to jump down my neck!!!

 

[sparkyt]

In general then and hypothetically speaking, how many of you would either just plan the job so that someone (me) could do the job and have the LA sign off the workor

plan, install the tricky bits, test the system but allow someone (again, me!) to labour for them (pulling cables, fitting boxes etc)

&

how would this effect your price?..... generally speaking....I'm not asking for a quote before anyone wants to jump down my neck!!!

i would price job based on a sparks and a mate and use you as mate and knock of the quoted mate labour rate currently half a sparks day rate for a 1-2yr expericanced aprentice and that way you could learn the correct installation techniques and still be 100 % involved with the job.

 

[Andy™]

In general then and hypothetically speaking, how many of you would either just plan the job so that someone (me) could do the job and have the LA sign off the workor

plan, install the tricky bits, test the system but allow someone (again, me!) to labour for them (pulling cables, fitting boxes etc)

&

how would this effect your price?..... generally speaking....I'm not asking for a quote before anyone wants to jump down my neck!!!

i wouldnt really mind if customer wanted to help with chasing / pulling in cables (along with me). price diference would be what i would have charged for that part of the job

 

[batty]

See, comments like this is the MAIN reason I'd prefer to learn and do it myself! Thanks for proving a point, I wondered when a jealous remark might surface.It still amazes me that some trades can't seem to price a job without seeing what you drive or how big your house is first.

There's a reason I can attempt to build of a certain size in the first place is spotting the dodgy people and making sure they don't get my money!

I really can assure you I am happy in my three bed semi after all we all end up in the same place when we die. It was you that was boasting what you are building and then asking for quotes. I am afraid its you and people like you that get my goat. If you think you can do any college course or any short course and learn how to be an electrician good luck because you will certainly need it if you intend to wire the house you are building all by yourself. Now pilots I have worked for one now he partly wired his house himself I ended up ripping a good percentage out as he had used about 20 junction boxes underfloors which would not be accessable after it had all been finished. He was a very nice man but really did not have a clue about electrics. You don't come from Buckinghamshire by any chance. When you decided to build this house I would have thought you would have priced how much it was likely to cost and had allowed a certain percentage for the electrics but maybe I am being silly here.

 

[Lurch]

In general then and hypothetically speaking, how many of you would either just plan the job so that someone (me) could do the job and have the LA sign off the work

I wouldn;t do that on any job with anyone unless it was someone I knew and trusted 100% to do the same quality of job as me, otherwise I wouldn;t put my name on it.

plan, install the tricky bits, test the system but allow someone (again, me!) to labour for them (pulling cables, fitting boxes etc)

I'd be happy with that, exactly how much you do would depend on how good\useful you are. This is a subjective thing and could only be judged by a couple of meetings and seeing you actually attempt to do something.

how would this effect your price?..... generally speaking....I'm not asking for a quote before anyone wants to jump down my neck!!!

It would entirely depend on how useful you were. TBH I'd rather you made the tea, bought the biscuits and butties and ran round the place more than anything, that to me would be a great help and would make the job run a lot smoother. There's not many people I can work with and just trust they'll do it right. I would knock something off the price though, again depends how much use you are so not really something that could be estimated here.

 

[angelboy]

I would get quotes from reputable companies small and large and weigh it up properly.

I'll do that when the time comes.

At the moment we're potentially a way off from getting quotes in and as I said in an earlier post I've been sort of pushed into making a decision due to the Part P course starting next week. Now I'm off that idea (again, read some of the previous posts) then I'll make sure I get plenty of sparks round to discuss and price from the drawings.

The estimations I asked for previously were just to offset against the training aspect and as mentioned I wouldn't want to waste a trades time finding out this information. I do understand that pricing for the actual job is different and all par for the course!

On the whole, and toward the end of this thread there's been some good advice and at least I've pretty much found answers to my confusion.

There has also been some stupid non-relevant posts which I'm never surprised about really.

Thanks! I will try and keep you posted in the coming year.....(s)!!!!

 

[angelboy]

I really can assure you I am happy in my three bed semi after all we all end up in the same place when we die. It was you that was boasting what you are building and then asking for quotes. I am afraid its you and people like you that get my goat.

:slap :slap:slap

Totally misread then misunderstood then the insecurity crept in........

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

In general then and hypothetically speaking, how many of you would either just plan the job so that someone (me) could do the job and have the LA sign off the workor

plan, install the tricky bits, test the system but allow someone (again, me!) to labour for them (pulling cables, fitting boxes etc)

&

how would this effect your price?..... generally speaking....I'm not asking for a quote before anyone wants to jump down my neck!!!

I am a self employed person, supporting my wife and family..

I will always do work to gain some level of profit..

My current labour charges haven't changed much since April 2005..

(I occasionally do a discount if I consider it mutually beneficial between myself and my client.)

All work I quote for is based on "WHAT THE CUSTOMER WANTS"

If you were a potential customer and the job had some element of being economically viable..

I would be more than happy to quote for whatever work you requested.

It is not in my interests to vastly change my labour rate between jobs...

because if or when personal recommendations are passed on..

customer 'A' says to new customer 'B' oh yes he is very good only charged

 

[angelboy]

I am a self employed person, supporting my wife and family..I will always do work to gain some level of profit..

..............

Good points. Everyone has to put food on the table, some do eat more than others though!

As mentioned in earlier posts I'm not ready for quotes yet and to call anyone out would be a tad premature. I'm based in the north of england, south of Doncaster for future reference.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

I'm based in the north of england, south of Doncaster for future reference.

Well in the word of Dragons den..

I'm out!!!!!!!!!!!! :Blushing

To bloomin far to travel!!!!

:slap :slap

 

[Mr Smith]

luckily for some members

mr smith had missed this thread

i applaud those who have replied

especially mr location

for the time and effort he has expended

i

for one

appreciate it

unfortunately i am not an electrically minded person

i have someone who does those things for me

so i cannot comment on the technical side

from a laymans perspective

i am quizzical as to why someone would want

to even consider such an install

with no previous knowledge or experience

as and when i have my dream retirement home built

i would want the top professionals in their fields

to do their works

price would be much lower down the list than quality

mr location

you have my kudos

for your patient posting on this thread

mr smith

 

[Andy™]

price would be much lower down the list than quality

unfortunately, its the other way around with most people.

 

[steptoe]

well at least the OP has decided not to waste 20+ years of his time becoming competant just to wire his own house.

and if my opinion was wanted I would think that this house will deffo be in the 20K+ region to do anywhere near what the OP is thinking about having installed.

BTW, I have probably worked in over 20 private houses in the past 5 years that are 3ph and needed it, and perhaps another 10 or so that were 2ph.