Part P Nightmare

[ProDave]

You do need to be clear about the difference between an electrical certificate and a condition report:

When any new circuits are installed an "Electrical Installation Certificate" (EIC) should be issued. This has a signed declaration for design, install and testing of the installation, stating compliance with wiring regulations. It covers all aspects of the new circuits.  This is the certificate that the LABC would normally need to see to sign off the work. It has to be signed by the person(s) who have designed, installed and tested the work.

Whereas an "Electrical Installation Condition Report" (EICR) is just a report on the condition of the installation based upon a random sample evaluation of parts of the circuits. It is not a certificate and it does not cover areas that are no longer accessible. (buried cables etc.) This is the only report that can legitimately be done now by contractors who were not involved in the original work. 

Wiring regulations and the format of certificates and reports change over time. The current forms are different to the ones that would have been issued in 2006. I doubt any competent electrician would issue an EIC for this work now.

Doc H.

But the crucial thing in this case, is the building inspector inspected the cables prior to being covered.

So common sense suggests the combination of that inspection of the cables routing, and the EICR would be enough.

The trouble is LABC don't seem to do common sense in this instance.

 

[Evans Electric]

Talk to your solicitor. you may be able to resolve it by purchasing an indemnity insurance for a one off fee.  I had to do that when I sold my last house as there was an apparent breach of a covenant that the buyers solicitor noticed. So I think it was £250 for the policy which would fight a claim under the covenant if one ever occurred.

As a footnote, I know it does not help you, but to anyone reading this thread, you need to keep on top of things at the time the work is done.  It is VITAL that you make the builders last stage payment conditional on getting the completion certificate from your building control. that will ensure the builder (and his subcontractors) complete everything to the satisfaction of the inspector, and you don;t hane over the final payment until you have that completion certificate.

You should have chased up the completion certificate as soon as the work was done, not several years later.

Thats a very pertinent point .

I know what happens in a lot of cases ...the builder wants  his  elects done by his Son / Uncle / Best mate etc although not registered  then blags it at the end somehow .   Gets paid , sparks gets paid , everyone happy except the customer .

 

[Ste.tomo]

Hi all, thank you for the advise I have sent a email to the Chief building inspector outlining what has been done and stumbling blocks we have had in getting this resolved. I have asked if an EICR can in this case resolve the situation and what support & advise her team can provide. On another note, to Evans Electrical you mentioned this has been excepted in your neck of the woods (Birmingham) what area was it in as I was thinking that if it was passed then this may have set a presidency and be a swing towards west lancs council being reasonable

Cheers all, mal

 

[Evans Electric]

Hi all, thank you for the advise I have sent a email to the Chief building inspector outlining what has been done and stumbling blocks we have had in getting this resolved. I have asked if an EICR can in this case resolve the situation and what support & advise her team can provide. On another note, to Evans Electrical you mentioned this has been excepted in your neck of the woods (Birmingham) what area was it in as I was thinking that if it was passed then this may have set a presidency and be a swing towards west lancs council being reasonable

Cheers all, mal

Just dug it out Ste.tomo .   It was in 2009 ...in Sutton Coldfield  , which is part of B,ham .   

I think the situation was the same as yours , no certs for the elects delaying the final sign off...builder saying he can't contact the Sparks or he won't come back to sort it .  

I told the customer to ask BC first , if they will accept a PIR from another contractor , they said that was OK .

The other option would be to ask Building Control to pass it off , you have to pay them ...they send a contractor  ( they can't do it themselves) Which the same as the customer calling me in.

( Your Building Inspector would not have inspected the electrical part of the build by the way , they live in a world of damp courses ...insulation & calcs for RSJs )

Good luck with it .

 

[apprentice87]

Hi there,

The council are just trying to be funny. A breach of building regulations is only enforceable for ONE YEAR [tis generally 4 years for PLANNING] So, not only are the council trying to be funny, but your solicitor if you have one is a halfwit too.

All that might happen is that the buyers will colluding with their solicitor to try to force the price down, and your solicitor will play letter writing games at your expense.

I have not read all the posts as i am in a hurry, so sorry if i have  missed anything.

[SIZE=12pt]Anyway, never mind bits of meaningless paper, put the house up for sale find a buyer and sell it. As part of the form filling you will be asked if you have put up any extensions etc in the last FOUR years, the answer is no. You are worrying about nothing...[/SIZE]

Breach of Building Regulations - Enforcement Action (Section 36 Notice)If the local authority discovers that some work has been carried out in breach of the building regulations then they may serve a Secton 36 Notice (so called because the power to serve the notice is granted by section 36 of the Building Act 1984). If a section 36 notice is served the owner of the land must either remove the offending structure or else carry out such works as are necessary to comply with building regulations. The local authority may only serve a Section 36 Notice within 12 months of the work being carried out. If they wish to take action after 12 months then they must apply to the court for an injunction which if granted will prevent the land, or that part affected by the offending works, from being used.

john...

Do you understand what i am saying???? The LABC could not do anything if they wanted to. Do not waste any more time or the price of electricity emailing them, just advertise the house and sell it...

john

You do not NEED any certificates......

 

[Evans Electric]

Brilliant Apprentice   ... I take it from that & previous posts of yours that you have studied law in some way ?

 

[apprentice87]

Just one of my many interests is all!!

john...

Twas them admin lot that called me "legal eagle" cheeky buggers!!!!

john.....

 

[Evans Electric]

Ah  Admins  Eh !  ...Hmmmm ...

 

[Ste.tomo]

HI John, thanks for the reply sorry I have got a bit confused with your response in a nutshell we got planning permission and no breach of building regs. We stupidly after the extension was finished did not even think about the council "signing off " the house and only found out by chance as Naively as this sounds.

As our new electrician said he can't give a Part P but checked the previous work plus the rest of the house and gave us a DEIC. The LABC insist this is not good enough so our electrician has said he will do a EICR to see if they will except this and sign off the house.

Back to your comment "do you understand what I am saying" I just want to sell the house we have been offered the full asking price the house has been checked and is safe and I just want it all to go through as smoothly as possible and that's why I want to see if the bloody LABC will help us.

Also, from your "Legal Eagle" status, how can the LABC inspect the extension see the new wiring and agree for the work to carry on then say because the plaster boards and sockets/switches are on and they did not get a Part P not support us to resolve this problem, rant over and thanks for the on going advice, Mal .

 

[steptoe]

ok,

what exactly is it that is stopping you selling the house?

the LABC CANNOT stop you from selling it,

is it the buyers solicitor?

 

[Evans Electric]

HI John, thanks for the reply sorry I have got a bit confused with your response in a nutshell we got planning permission and no breach of building regs. We stupidly after the extension was finished did not even think about the council "signing off " the house and only found out by chance as Naively as this sounds.

As our new electrician said he can't give a Part P but checked the previous work plus the rest of the house and gave us a DEIC. The LABC insist this is not good enough so our electrician has said he will do a EICR to see if they will except this and sign off the house.

Back to your comment "do you understand what I am saying" I just want to sell the house we have been offered the full asking price the house has been checked and is safe and I just want it all to go through as smoothly as possible and that's why I want to see if the bloody LABC will help us.

Also, from your "Legal Eagle" status, how can the LABC inspect the extension see the new wiring and agree for the work to carry on then say because the plaster boards and sockets/switches are on and they did not get a Part P not support us to resolve this problem, rant over and thanks for the on going advice, Mal .

They don't see it Ste.  They're not electrical ..they rely on the electrician to state in his certs that its all to correct standards etc  as the Gas man does .

Those inspectors have no experience in gas or leccy.  hence the certification stuff .

I think we're in Jobsworth  Britain with this .

Is there another answer where you can offer an insurance to cover these things ,,,think I heard of it with windows not certed under Fensa  ..nothing wrong with them  just no Fensa.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

I get the impression that this pivots around the signing off of the building works as a whole..

NOT just a specific electrical problem......

i.e.

FORGET THE ELECTRICAL ASPECTS FOR A MINUTE....

1/ Planning permission for some building works was applied for...

2/ Permission was granted...

3/ Work was commenced  (evident by the fact it is there and can be seen)

4/ The work (in the eyes of the council) is still in progress or not yet complete as they have not yet signed it off

Rememeber...

although planning permission typically valid for a specific duration, by which the work must have commenced...

THERE IS NOT NORMALLY ANY TIMESCALE UNDER WHICH THE WORK MUST BE COMPLETED!!!

5/ A DIY slow worker doing just weekends and two evenings a week could quite legitimately build his own extension over many many years..

6/ Once the council have done their final inspection then the work is signed off as complete!!! 

7/ Any works that the council were expecting a 3rd party to self certify will be needing the appropriate certificates from whoever is self certifying the work... 

(this should be done within 30day of work complete)

THE SELLING PART:-

If an extension is clearly evident at a property....

but NO paperwork validating the extension was all completed & signed off etc.....

then this could well raise problems with a mortgage lender not willing to offer a mortgage on a property without all the paperwork, certificates, boxes ticked etc...!! 

You may well be able to stick it up for sale...

But buyers (unless they are buying with cash) will most likely be looking for a mortgage!

Any reputable lender would not offer loads of dosh on a property that has obviously got an extension but not building regs compliance documentations  etc...

opcorn

 

[apprentice87]

Basically, what it boils down to then is you have not got the thing signed off by the building regs people, am I right here?? and that the council will not give you such cert, as you have not got an EIC for the wiring, yes??

WHEN YOUR EXTENSION WAS BUILT, ELECTRICAL WORK WAS NOT EVEN COVERED BY THE BUILDING REGS..... This has already been mentioned, the council are just halfwits as is your solicitor by the sounds of it.

Just let the solicitor get on with selling it, if the buyer wants any kind of cert for the extension, let their solicitor worry about it

just remember, the building regs did not even cover electrical matters until 1st january 2005.....

As has been suggested, you can indeed insure against problems like this, read here.

http://www.gardandco.com/conveyancing/building-regulations.html

But, and this is a HUGE MASSIVE ENORMOUS BUT, You might well not be able to do the insurance route now, because you had to go stirring up the council which has basically, started the ball rolling again.....

STOP trying to head off none existant problems.... Your are making things worse...... The lack of buliding regs certs does not matter, as it was more than a year ago and unenforceable anyway.

Just let the conveyancer do his job, stop stirring the council up, and it will be fine.

If there ARE any problems now YOU created them by trying to "do the right thing" as i say, the insurance that you could well have used [if needed], will probably not be available to you now....

Are you going to phone the church to ask them if you owe anything for chancel repairs????

There is a covenant attached to the land my house was built on requiring the land to be fenced off but with a gap so peasants could get to a water hole, do you think i should wander round the town to see if any "down and outs" might like a lift to the solicitors to see if they can sue me for none availabilty of water holes???

Just relax, you are going to make yourself ill.. Just deal with problems as they arise, and NOT BEFORE!!!!!!!

john....

 

[Sharpend]

I think we need a new sub section called Ask John. ????

 

[Andy™]

WHEN YOUR EXTENSION WAS BUILT, ELECTRICAL WORK WAS NOT EVEN COVERED BY THE BUILDING REGS..... This has already been mentioned, the council are just halfwits as is your solicitor by the sounds of it.

the work started jan 2006... when part p was in force. but if the planning permission included electrical, and they did do an inspection at 1st fix, then i would say its upto the council to sort it

 

[ProDave]

the work started jan 2006... when part p was in force. but if the planning permission included electrical, and they did do an inspection at 1st fix, then i would say its upto the council to sort it

Up here it's the date the building warrant was issued that determines what regulations it has to follow.

So did you apply for building control before or after Part P?

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

As said earlier...

FORGET the electrical bits for a minute...

There are other building regs that are/were applicable when the work was planned, submitted, commenced etc anyway!

And the bottom line is ....

Its going to be ruddy difficult to sell the house without the Building regs completion certificate for ALL aspects of the construction...

Structure / ventilation / Insulation / Windows  etc.. etc...

for example from here...

http://www.labc.uk.com/technical-faqs

Q: I’m thinking of selling my home – will I need approval for building work I haven’t carried out?
A: If your home has improvement or extension work carried out by a previous owner – you will need to have the proper certification for it when you come to sell. If you do not have the relevant building certificates then you can apply for ‘regularisation’ – retrospective approval. A local council building surveyor will assess the work to see if it is up to standard and, if not, recommend improvements to bring it up to standard so they can issue the appropriate certificates. You will have to pay a fee to your local council. Or find out by watching our video

Q: So how does the approval process work?
A: When your application is approved by your local council building control team they will usually provide you with an Inspection Service Plan before you start work. This outlines the stages of work they would like to inspect. It will vary depending on the size and complexity of your project, age of your home, the construction type, ground conditions and your builder’s experience.
You’ll need to inform your local council building control team when you start and when you reach the stages outlined in your Inspection Service Plan so they can carry out site visits. Once the work has been completed to the satisfaction of your local building control team they will issue a ‘Completion Certificate’ to show all the work is up to standard.  

The OP has got to find out exactly what action or documents or payment they require the finalise the signing off of the work.... 

Otherwise all that will happen is some unsuspecting buyer who want to put in a offer wont be able to get their mortgage as the lender isn't satisfied they have all the right documents....

Which will then cost the OP more in back tracking trying to do what John has told him not to do..

and pay more to the estate agents to keep the property advertised longer etc..

My gut feeling is that if someone who knew what they were taking about was speaking to someone at the council who knew what they were talking about this matter could be resolved very quickly...

 

[Andy™]

well if it started jan 2006, i doubt the planning permission was granted over a year previous

 

[apprentice87]

Yes, but all they had to do was let the solicitor get on with it, and, if the buyers solicitor raised any objections, insure against them, [in the same way, a VERY common thing is to insure against restrictive covenants,[ more in a second]

The building regs people cannot do a thing, it is more than a year ago, forget them.....

If the buyers wants or needs a cert, he can go the insurance route which may well prove cheaper anyway.

Back to the covenants. It is very common for a property to be encumbered with one or more of these, requiring the owner of the land to do or not to do something, half of them are not valid anyway, or have expired or become redundant. I had a house once where the effect of the covenant was that i could not have converted it into a pub or a brothel !!!!

Anyway, the only person that can "ungrant" if you like, a covenant, is the person that made it, or subsequent people that derive the benefit of it. This for obvious reasons, might be impossible for practical purposes, so you simply insure against the covenant ever being enforced.

This is what the OP should have done. [but now probably cannot]

Either;

Let the solicitor get on with it, and MAYBE go down the insurance route [how is an insurance company ever going to know he has stirred the council up]

OR

If this is a route not available now, as Special Location says;

"My gut feeling is that if someone who knew what they were taking about was speaking to someone at the council who knew what they were talking about this matter could be resolved very quickly..."

One would hope this works, BUT, i have an idea that where building regs are concerned, they CANNOT accept a EICR, it HAS to be the original EIC, but it would appear that the councils have come up with a money making [retrospective] scammy way round this

The OP should have let the conveyancer deal with it and none of this would have happened.....

john...

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

So according to your interpretation anybody doing any building works need never bother getting anything finally signed off...

As nothing can or will be done about it once 12 months have elapsed??????

Even though there is tractable proof that a homeowner applied for permission...

commenced some works...

Had some interim visits...

But never completed the works...

(i.e. not signed off)

Where does your '12 months timescale' start from??

Surely if never signed off...

The work is still ongoing and current..

Therefore '12 months' have not yet elapsed from finishing the work !

:C