Problem with electrician Can anyone help

[Joelondon]

I am renovating a house in London and asked an electrician to put in a new consumer unit in as an older house, he said the wiring was OK in general for 1980 house, I chose an electrician who was well qualified but when he came he put someone else on the job and told me that he would check the work later, the guy seemed competent. I also asked for some more work to be done and again he dropped the guy off to do the work and just popped back when the guy seemed to be struggling. I asked the electrician for a fixed price, but he convinced me that an hourly rate would be better for me.

Later in the project I had other builders who commented how slow the electrician was working, I the speed he was going was quite ridiculous, everything was taking 5 times longer than it should, so I politely asked if we could go back to a fixed price system and I would pay for the work already done. To my amazement the original electrician turned up and they both left the job and I never heard from them again.

I asked another electrician who was with Napit and because it was a half finished job he was very suspicious I told him that I needed someone to finish off and he agreed but wanted a day rate paid cash at the end of each day which I agreed and he said he would give me certs for his work. He did a days work, I paid him but he never came back or gave me the certs.

I am unsure what to do now can do now to make sure all the wiring done is certified and don't want to be taken advantaged of again, can I just get a quote for the final bits to be done and then get a electrical inspection to cover all the electrics and new consumer unit?

Thanks for any advice in advance

 

[Rob_the_rich]

Hi Joe, welcome to the Forum. Do you know which scheme/organisation the first electrician was registered with? What work was carried out? and did they leave their work energised ie powered up?

Did you pay them anything? ( not really relevant, I'm just nosey)

Also, do you know what work the second NAPIT electrician did? Did he leave his work energised? He may have only intended to certify his own work, and for whatever reason didn't complete.

Schemes should be able to investigate electrical work, but will not be interested in mediating in financial matters

 

[Joelondon]

Hi Joe, I paid him for some but not all the work and he has not sent me an invoice, but my intention is not to not pay i am very fair as I don't like any hassle.

powered up yes first guy who was Napit.

2nd guy yes powered up Napit.

Everything appears to work fine and nothing is in a half done state now but still work needs doing.

It's really not something I want to get into work being investigated by bodies etc, I am not after getting anyone into trouble etc, the last thing I want at this stage is more stress, all I want to do is just get the work finished and tested so that I am covered when I come to sell the house and am just looking for the easiest way to do this.

Thanks

 

[Rob_the_rich]

You can threaten to complain without actually doing it. But I see where you are coming from. Seems you can only ask them for their certs, depending on what works they have done, they are obliged (by BS7671, which is not the law) to issue one. When replacing a consumer unit they are also obliged (by their scheme providers) to notify building control (ref Part P of the building regulations, which are the law, but places the responsibility on the Homeowner, oddly)

If you were to complain to NAPIT, I am sure they would be interested, as both are members, and it is bringing their name into disrepute. Most, if not all, schemes have an insurance-backed warrantee which will pay for another member to come around and finish the job, although how this would work in reality is another question.

Another option would be to speak to Building Control on their next visit(?) and ask whether an EICR would be acceptable for them to be able to sign off on the job. 

 

[Doc Hudson]

Most, if not all, schemes have an insurance-backed warranty which will pay for another member to come around and finish the job, although how this would work in reality is another question.

I am 99.9% sure insurance warranty will not be applicable in this instance. As I understand it is for where work has been completed, certified and notified by a contractor, but later it becomes evident that the work is sub-standard and the original contractor is no longer trading. This is where the original contractors scheme operator would step in to carry out remedial works due to negligence of one of their members. If the original contractor is still trading they should put it right at their own expense, not covered by insurance.

Did you have any type of formal written agreement before the work commenced, and did you have quotes from more than one contractor?

I would think most reputable electricians would be very wary of taking on work like this due to the legal obligations of stating in writing that the work is all electrically safe and compliant with BS7671 and Part -P. If someone got injured later due to an item they omitted to test fully then they will be the ones standing in the court room. (Electricity will kill a healthy adult in less than a second.)  It is not impossible, if you cannot get either of the original persons to come back and complete the work,  you will need a written agreement with another contractor stating exactly what needs to be done and thus where any liabilities lie.

From first impressions it does sound just like a job where builder has done a few bits on the side and is just looking for someone who is wiling to come along and give a certificate for work they have not done. The problem you will have is that most reputable electricians will have sufficient work already booked and will probably not want the sort of hassle and liabilities your work would bring.

Doc H. 

 

[binky]

2 points,

1/ complain to NAPIT it's what they are for

2/ never pay cash on the nail. 

Which end of London are you? We have  afew members on here from London

 

[Joelondon]

From first impressions it does sound just like a job where builder has done a few bits on the side and is just looking for someone who is wiling to come along and give a certificate for work they have not done.

I am telling as it is, qualified electricians have done the work i wouldnt touch electrics myself. what i dont understand is any work after should an electrician not be giving certs for the work he has done but not covering everything? I think I am going to have to just get the work finished and then pay building control to check it over. Other alternatives are to get a new consumer unit installed or to ask building control if a full periodic inspection would be OK.

 

[Evans Electric]

I hear what you say Joe  but really I think you should speak  to NAPITT  .......  say you are getting a third NAPITT  member  to finish off what the others have left  and its not good enough .  Thats what these schemes are for and we all have to pay in to support them .

The trouble with electricians coming and going is that loose ends /  live ends , unfinished circuits can be left  all over the place ....one hand not knowing what the other has done. 

And I have to say this..... if I was asked to attend this job I'd probably  be running in the opposite direction  knowing the history .     I know that doesn't help  but just pointing it out  .       

 

[Sharpend]

I have to agree here, at least a call to Napit is required, imo it is unacceptable if these electricians are only doing part of the job assuming that they have been given a full remit. 

Napit may(will?) contact the said sparks to see what's going on at the very least I'd have thought. 

 

[Doc Hudson]

But whoever you contact, without some form of documented formal agreement giving a schedule of work to be undertaken, it is just a customer -vs- contractor complaint that I don't think Napit / NIC / ELECSA or anyone similar would be bothered about pursuing ?  I may be wrong, but as I read it I get the impression this was done on verbal requests and agreements, which make it damn near impossible to pin down exactly what each persons obligations are. If you have copies of written proposed work schedule and photos of what was actually done then you may be able to put that to Napit's complaints dept.

Doc H.

 

[binky]

there's still a legal requirement to certify works done regardless of all other paperwork

 

[Doc Hudson]

there's still a legal requirement to certify works done regardless of all other paperwork

Only once the work is complete, i.e. you do not issue the certificates part way through a job. With a pure verbal agreement it would be easy for a contractor to claim work was still in progress, and as there is no obligation for any single contractor to have to carry out every aspect of a job from design, construction thro to testing and certification, (larger projects will frequently have multiple contractors / sub-contractors working), so its very easy to pass the buck and say I was never asked to do the testing and certification. I think It would be a very grey area and difficult to prove obligations just on one persons word. 

A fundamental principal of all complaints procedures is that the person who is being complained against must first be given opportunity to rectify the issue. By bringing in a second contractor this situation has already been muddied and the first one can claim that the work has been altered so his responsibilities are diluted or dissolved by the actions of the second contractor.  https://www.napit.org.uk/home-owner/complaints-about-scheme-members.aspx  To be quite blunt it looks like a classic case of bad project management and it is possible that both electricians could claim that the work they were ask to do was changed part way through and that is why they left site. Unless there is a formal written contract agreement to tie down either contractor or customer to identify their obligations and expectations. 

Doc H.

 

[Doc Hudson]

From the napit complaints webpage, You must complain to the contractor first;

If you have concerns about the compliance of your installation you must register this with the installer who carried out the work and give them the opportunity to resolve the issue. If you approach NAPIT without having gone through this stage we will note that a complaint is to be raised, notify the installer that we are aware of the complaint and ask you to contact the installer directly.

Disputes around obligations and liabilities;

There are circumstances where an agreement cannot be reached, or is not being adequately delivered, typically for one of the following reasons:

The installer disputes the details of the complaint and the evidence from both parties is inconclusive regarding fault

There is no contract (or equivalent documented evidence) that demonstrates that the work was carried out by the installer complained about

In the absence of a contract, evidence could be certification issued by the installer, or registration of the job for things like Building Control or the MCS Installation Database (both of which register the installer name). A quotation is not evidence that work was done unless it is annotated or referred to in correspondence that shows that accepting it formed a contract.

If it is not possible to establish beyond doubt that the installer complained about was responsible for the work, NAPIT are unlikely to be able to help. You could consider Court action where officials can consider arguments for responsibility.

https://www.napit.org.uk/home-owner/complaints-about-scheme-members.aspx

Doc H.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

what i don't understand is any work after should an electrician not be giving certs for the work he has done but not covering everything?

Just to give another electricians perspective on things....

1/  Yes a competent electrician should be doing correct testing and certifying his/her work on a document that matches the standard model forms in the back of the wiring regs...

BUT

2/  It is also very common for a job to involve a first-fix stage prior to plastering, then a second fix stage after the plasterers have been and done their stuff......

SO

3/ If the electrician genuinely thought that some plastering was needed before he returned to complete the works.....

Then NO certificates would have been issued at this point.

opcorn

 

[Murdoch]

Presumably the op knows the name and address of said electrician so best they take it up with them.

 

[binky]

Only once the work is complete, i.e. you do not issue the certificates part way through a job. 

 If a circuit is energised is it not considered complete? Ergo even if other works need completing would it not require a cert for the energised cct regardless?

 

[Doc Hudson]

 If a circuit is energised is it not considered complete? Ergo even if other works need completing would it not require a cert for the energised cct regardless?

In principal yes, but in the real world I can think of numerous occasions where, certainly in an occupied property, a circuit may be re-energised in a safe manner, whilst still awaiting further work on that circuit. e.g. a lighting circuit could be 90% completed, energised, but awaiting the decorators to paper or paint walls before some final accessories are fully energised. The live supply to some wall lights may be left disconnected in the back of the wall switch, but temporary ceiling pendant connected so they can see what they are doing when hanging wallpaper.  Or some sockets left off with a loop of uncut cable in back box so expensive decorative fittings don't get covered with paint or wallpaper paste. I would want to finally check r1, r2, rn at the CU, after all sockets are correctly terminated to double check no lose connections once sockets fitted back to wall. In the real world I doubt many would issue a temporary certificate to then issue the full proper on two weeks later. Even though the circuit is energised. Not much different that a job that takes longer than one day on an existing circuit that needs to be kept energised overnight. Additional sockets in two rooms on same circuit. Room 1 done day 1, power restored, no certificate. Room 2 done day 2, full final testing power restored certificate issued.

The reality of the problem with this particular instance is not about if certificates were issued or not. But if any form of formal agreement of works to be done was actually written down anywhere prior to work commencing ? Quote / e-mail / text, or is it just verbal he said this, But I thought he said this. As far as I know all of the scheme's Napit, NICE, ELECSA, etc all recommend consumers get a written agreement of some sort for anything but very minor alterations.

Doc H. 

 

[binky]

re-reading the original post, it's not clear if anything was finished at all - have to say I wouldn only issue a cert on completion of all works.

Not sure if the OP really has a leg to stand on complaints wise, without contracts, nothing is clear cut. Even with a contract, I can't think of much that stops a contractor walking out on a job (haven given notice in writing) - could just argue the customer was being unreasonable.

If contractor tries to claim unpaid monies for work done / part done, that's a different matter. Likewise if customer claims work piad for hasn't been done. Very difficult without clear contract and clear invoicing for 'partial works' or staged payments.