Questioning another electricians judgement.

[ProDave]

Background: I stopped doing EICR's for rental properties a few years back when the Highland council decided my qualifications were too old and there is no way I am going back to college as many will know I am on the verge of retiring. I still do minor repair jobs for the letting agent.

Today they have asked me to fit a new CU in the garage. Pretty simple, in old metal Wylex 3036 2 circuits, should be a simple job. But.....

The agent enclosed a copy of the last EICR. It appears they did not test the garage circuits, they listed them as FI which unless it has changed recently that would mean the EICR is not "satisfactory" only they have given it a Satsfactory.

Next issue, the garage CU is fed from a B10 MCB from the RCD side of a split load board. So the garage CU and garage circuits already have RCD protection, so what is actually wrong with a 3036 in that little fuse box?

I am torn between telling the agent I think their other electrician is incompetent, or just doing the job.

 

[binky]

Nothing wrong with fuses or fusewire, they are still recognised protective devices.

 

[ProDave]

My dimemma.

Do I tell the agent, there is nothing wrong with it and the new electrician is incompetent?

Do i fit a new mini CU and at the same time change the source to a 20A MCB on the non RCD side of the main board and risk the new electrician failing it at next EICR? the garge is fed with 2.5mm SWA

Had I been doing the EICR I would have at least increased the source MCB to 20 or even 25A and put two plug in MCB''s in the existing garage box.

 

[Murdoch]

Would the lettings agent listen to you ?

The FI and giving a satisfactory report isn’t great

I did not work for lettings agents or estate agents - only for home owners - so tricky conversations were easier to do

 

[binky]

My dimemma.

Do I tell the agent, there is nothing wrong with it and the new electrician is incompetent?

Do i fit a new mini CU and at the same time change the source to a 20A MCB on the non RCD side of the main board and risk the new electrician failing it at next EICR? the garge is fed with 2.5mm SWA

Had I been doing the EICR I would have at least increased the source MCB to 20 or even 25A and put two plug in MCB''s in the existing garage box.

Only you can really decide that, I've always approached such issues as being an old bugger with greater knowledge of old systems than young-uns. That way it's not so much criticism of the other spark, more that you know more than they do.

 

[ProDave]

Would the lettings agent listen to you ?

The FI and giving a satisfactory report isn’t great

I did not work for lettings agents or estate agents - only for home owners - so tricky conversations were easier to do

She absolutely would. I did all their EICR's until some numpty at the council decided I was a dinosaur and they would not accept my judgement. I will have a chat with her and see what she wants me to do, and explain my concerns.

 

[Nicky Tesla]

I would do the job, and the moment they hand over the money, is the moment I tell them that the work was unnecessary.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Next issue, the garage CU is fed from a B10 MCB from the RCD side of a split load board. So the garage CU and garage circuits already have RCD protection, so what is actually wrong with a 3036 in that little fuse box?

I am torn between telling the agent I think their other electrician is incompetent, or just doing the job.

Can you send them a photo copy / scan / photo image of page 67 of the current regs where the max permissible Zs' for 3036 protective devices are all listed....?

And suggest that rather than replacing anything, you would be willing to first re-test the current garage installation to see if it does actually comply with page 67, As from your previous experience, knowledge, qualifications, you suspect that the alteration work may be overkill and not actually required?

 

[ProDave]

Back from looking at this. Apparently at last EICR they did not have access to the garage so it was not tested. The new tenant about to move in wants to use the garage so I have been tasked with checking it and making it safe.

So proposal is to swap the SWA feed to a 20A MCB on the non RCD side of the house CU. Fit a new CU in the garage and fit a new light and light switch (old light holder broken and switch stuck)

 

[Stevie G]

Background: I stopped doing EICR's for rental properties a few years back when the Highland council decided my qualifications were too old and there is no way I am going back to college as many will know I am on the verge of retiring. I still do minor repair jobs for the letting agent.

Today they have asked me to fit a new CU in the garage. Pretty simple, in old metal Wylex 3036 2 circuits, should be a simple job. But.....

The agent enclosed a copy of the last EICR. It appears they did not test the garage circuits, they listed them as FI which unless it has changed recently that would mean the EICR is not "satisfactory" only they have given it a Satsfactory.

Next issue, the garage CU is fed from a B10 MCB from the RCD side of a split load board. So the garage CU and garage circuits already have RCD protection, so what is actually wrong with a 3036 in that little fuse box?

I am torn between telling the agent I think their other electrician is incompetent, or just doing the job.

An old electrician used to say, he has forgot more than the electrician he was working with knows .... I have posted before ,that a mature electrician who's time just out 3 years ago ,was working with me, armed with the latest qualifications when i asked him that an electric heater battery was being upgraded from 3Kw to 6kw . So how many amps in a 1Kw , he said he would need to google It !!!
Im retired 3 years now ,so my advice is for you start rowing for the shore , and enjoy your retirement as you will fill your time no problem .
Cherry pick your jobs jobs until you retire ,as a lot of the guys i seen coming through couldn't put a nut in a monkey's mouth .
Last laugh ,one electrician asked to borrow my volt stick to check if a 3-ph pyro was live !!!

The list goes on .

 

[Apache]

So proposal is to swap the SWA feed to a 20A MCB on the non RCD side of the house CU. Fit a new CU in the garage and fit a new light and light switch (old light holder broken and switch stuck)

Whilst what you propose seems eminently sensible to a vet, I have 2 issues. First, if it's not broken why fix it, why not see how they get on with the 10A supply? Second - irrespective of anything else, they have the garage marked as FI and yet a satisfactory EICR - that's still the problem here, no?

They seem to be using FI in the same way people used limitations on the old PIRs, no?

 

[binky]

They seem to be using FI in the same way people used limitations on the old PIRs, no?

Yep, that's exactly what some people do.

As it seems it was not tested due to lack of access, what they could have done is simply state the garage was not tested because of that, and that the rest of the system was satisfactory. They also should have contacted the agent to get access.

I've had access problems in some larger buildings, it's not always easily resolved. Lost keys, dangerous access, very high ceilings etc, can make it very difficult to test. Likewise lift supplies are never tested by me, I note cable size and mcbs are compatible, and annotate the cert accordingly.

 

[Fleeting]

Had this countless times you note it as a Limitation and in doing so it excludes it from the Report.

 

[kerching]

I heard on the grapevine from somebody who knows these things that FI may well be downgraded in the next Comic and not be an automatic UNSATISFACTORY

 

[ProDave]

I think my original gripe was why put FI for the garage and yet give Satisfactory.

I now know they did not have access to the garage and the tenant then was not using it. I would have been more inclined to disconnect the feed to the garage and then you could give it satisfactory without problem, and leave a note saying it had been disconnected.

As to why not leave alone, that was my initial thought but as it is, the garage in on a B10 mcb, probably because that was the only one to hand? and shares the same RCD as the house circuits. And the light does not work in the garage.

So swapping the SWA feed to a 20A on the non RCD side a mini CU in the garage with it's own rcd a new light and new light switch and all tested and it's good to go.

As to choosing my jobs yes I am and this one is for the letting agent I have been working for for nearly 20 years. She knows I am about to quit. Mid April is the cut off time, for complicated reasons I won't have a vehicle suitable for work after that.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Don't understand why the previous inspection didn't just fill out the "Extent and limitations" box correctly..
e.g. All house circuits tested, garage excluded as access not possible. No need for any FI.

There is no requirement on any EICR to test the whole installation in one go!

FI to me always related to an accessible area that you had agreed to test but were unable to complete the tests during your visit or found some higher than expected test results...

e.g. A small lighting circuit feeding an extension with only 3 lights, max cable length estimate 25m - 30m, but an earth loop of 6.5ohms, within the max permissible for a 6A 60898, but excessively high for the physical circuit, suggesting a poor joint somewhere.. Further investigation needed!

Or a ring with continuity around all legs but neutral end-to-end is double the value of line end-to-end. Although all earth loop readings are within limits.. which suggests a dodgy neutral joint somewhere... Further investigation needed!

Or the classic cooker and/or shower switch where polarity, continuity and ELI can be apparently tested and noted on the report, but may be way above the expected values for a short 10m run of 6.0mm or 10.0mm? Probably indicating a failing switch or termination..

etc..

 

[Murdoch]

I heard on the grapevine from somebody who knows these things that FI may well be downgraded in the next Comic and not be an automatic UNSATISFACTORY

COMIC

Love that