RCD and ELV for bathroom extractor?

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beemer

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:z couldn't sleep thinking about this one:^O .... Do I still need a ELV and RCD for a bathroom extractor according to 17th?

Thanks ...Dave

 

beemer

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Sorry... thought I had given enough details.... bathroom needs an extractor, so does it have to be ELV (12v) as well as supplied through a RCD?

Another way of putting it..... I have connected a 12v extractor fan in my bathroom, (2m high, at the end of the bath) but also rewired the bathroom lights via the RCD side of my consumer unit to comply to 17th edition. Did I really need to have done both or could I have just put the bathroom on the RCD side of the board and left the extractor 240v? Bearing in mind that all I wanted to do was install an extractor.

Thanks

Dave

 

binky

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Ceiling height low so 12v needed - check zones in handbooks (I like in-line fans up in the roof space - avoids all problems). Don't think I would have bothered with RCD for such a minor change to circuit, but better safe than sorry

 

norv

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Any circuit entering the bathroom needs RCD protection, regardless of zones.

 

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Just to stick a bit more 'meat-on-the-bones' on this thread...

Section 701 - Locations containing Bath or Shower. pg 165 onward->

following regs are relevant:

701.411.3.3 Additional protection by RCD

Requires additional protection by 30ma RCD provided for all circuits of the location.

701.32.3 Description of zone 1

defines Zone 1 as 2.25m vertical above floor level around area of bath or shower.

701.512.3 Switch gear & accessories in zone 1.

states only switches of SELV circuits @ 12v ac RMS, or 30v ripple free dc, shall be installed with the source outside zones 0, 1, 2.

701.55 Fixed & perm connected current using equipment in zone 1.

States permissible equipment includes... whirlpool units, showers, shower pumps, ventilation equipment, towel rails, water heating appliances, luminaries or SELV or PELV equip at voltage <25v ac or <60v ripple free dc with source outside of zones 0,1 & 2.

NOW...

701.55 doesn't actually say you cant have 230v fan.. in zone 1.

Table 8.1 page 70 On-Site-Guide..

lists all of the items from reg 701.55 as the only permissible 230v equipment in zone 1.

BUT the equipment must be IPX4 rated or IPX5 if water jets.

The NICEIC pocket guide 1-2, siting equip in location with bath or shower.

state that ventilation equipment fitted in zone 1..

must be fixed, perm connected & suitable for zone 1 according to manufactures instructions!

So in summary...

Yes should be RCD protected..

but it is possible to have 230v fan in zone1 if it has correct IPX rating! ;)

Personally I would stick to 12v fan though! :| :) :):DB-)

 

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So in summary...

Yes should be RCD protected..

but it is possible to have 230v fan in zone1 if it has correct IPX rating! ;)

Personally I would stick to 12v fan though! :| :) :):DB-)
Now here's another twist in the tail...

I have here in my grubby mit a 230v fan for a downstairs loo that I have got to install.

The fan is called a bathroom & toilet fan.

The instructions say see internal rating plate for IP rating..

Internal label says IP44.

But also the instruction leaflet says.. not to be install within reach of a bath or shower.

SO...

OSGUIDE says permissible if IP rating. :)

IP rating says YES. :)

instruction says NO. :(

NICEIC say check manufacturers instructions.. which becomes a NO! :(

its a yes you can... no you cant... yes you can... no you cant.. etc.. etc.. :eek:

I think you probably done the right thing sticking a 12v & RCD!!!

;) :)

 

norv

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So to summarise, would you agree (seems reasonable) that any work done on any circuit in a bathroom req's RCD, & work done that involves changes to switch drops req's RCD but addition of downlights, moving lights or replacing lights in other parts of the house doesnt require RCD protection.Pray

 

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So to summarise, would you agree (seems reasonable) that any work done on any circuit in a bathroom req's RCD,
YEP! :) ; )Guiness Drink

& work done that involves changes to switch drops req's RCD
YEP! {alter a cable buried in wall?} ;) :)Guiness Drink

but addition of down lights' date=' moving lights or replacing lights in other parts of the house doesn't require RCD protection.Pray[/quote']

YEP! {your new wiring in ceiling void NOT buried in wall, NO RCD for your new physical bits of wire added to circuit!} ;) :)Guiness Drink

BUT

if it is easy to waz in an RCBO cuz its a modern CU & I can squeeze an extra
 

beemer

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:D cheers peeps! I have since become aware of a RCD box that can be installed outside of the bathroom to bring bathroom electrics up to 17th Regs.

Does anyone know the correct designation for this item, or a link please?

 

norv

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but addition of down lights, moving lights or replacing lights in other parts of the house doesn't require RCD protection. YEP! {your new wiring in ceiling void NOT buried in wall, NO RCD for your new physical bits of wire added to circuit!}
Well, had my Annual DI assessment today & passed, but I asked about the quote above, & the assessor said the lighting circuit did have to be RCD'd because you were extending the circuit. (Not RCD'd if you were replacing like for like)

I dunno what to believe. I suppose you just have to make a decision at the time or just whack an RCD in everywhere & then your covered. ?:|

 

Apache

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Well, had my Annual DI assessment today & passed, but I asked about the quote above, & the assessor said the lighting circuit did have to be RCD'd because you were extending the circuit. (Not RCD'd if you were replacing like for like)I dunno what to believe. I suppose you just have to make a decision at the time or just whack an RCD in everywhere & then your covered. ?:|
Now since the lighting circuit includes a bathroom and ALL circuits in a bathroom need RCD could this be the reason?

 

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Well, had my Annual DI assessment today & passed, but I asked about the quote above, & the assessor said the lighting circuit did have to be RCD'd because you were extending the circuit. (Not RCD'd if you were replacing like for like)I dunno what to believe. I suppose you just have to make a decision at the time or just whack an RCD in everywhere & then your covered. ?:|
This is one of those areas you can debate till the cows come home...

(oh, Apache is home so thats the end of that debate!:^OGuiness Drink)

The EIC or MWC you sign.. is for your NEW work..

to say that that new work complies with current reg..

Now you don't go round the whole of the lighting circuit to verify all switch wires are correctly identified with sleeve....

or twin brown or twin red cable..

or that all CPC's are sleeved Grn/Yel

or that all ES fittings are correct polarity..

or that there are no wooden back boxes etc.. etc..

AND

your alteration may be a branch of the circuit or prior to the furthest point so the Zs may be unaltered...

So you NEVER actually prove the WHOLE circuit anyway??

By the same argument you could say I have to RCD the whole installation because I have increased the max demand by putting a extra light fitting in!

I think to the exact word of the regs it is just your new work that should comply...

BUT... :|

it is obvious to anyone with common sense that the trend is now toward RCD everything....

and as I have said before IMHO.

adding an extra

 

binky

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So you NEVER actually prove the WHOLE circuit anyway??
I've often wondered if other people do this or not when making small changes to a circuit. I tend to MWC for the small mod, usually because of lack of access to test circuit properly whilst building work progresses (you know the scene, boxes of stuff, clothes etc, etc all around the house), but was never quite convinced this was legally correct on the grounds that you shouldn't work on a circuit unless proven good?????.

As for RCD on a 16th edition circuit in bathroom, I would not consider this absolute necessity if supplementary bonding is in and correctly done (rare I know). It's easier to RCD if supp. bonb isn't fully in place, But in the same way that RCD protection for lighting is cat 4 on PIR, I would consider this a similar situation for bathroom correctly installed to 16th regs, prior to change to 17th? :| ?:|

Or maybe its time I did the update course:z:z:z

 
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