Rcd reg for general sockets

Talk Electrician Forum

Help Support Talk Electrician Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Wirybox

Junior Member
Joined
May 5, 2012
Messages
7
Reaction score
0
Hi guys can I have your views on use of Rcd's for sockets in general areas as the regs say they should all now be Rcd protected. I know there are a few exceptions and it is only a P4 if there is no Rcd but I never know when to flag this fault up any ideas?

 
Hi guys can I have your views on use of Rcd's for sockets in general areas as the regs say they should all now be Rcd protected. I know there are a few exceptions and it is only a P4 if there is no Rcd but I never know when to flag this fault up any ideas?
Are you referring to the 'old code 4' on the now obsolete Periodic Inspection Report? You should now be working to the Electrical Installation Condition Report. EICR for all work Since January 2012. Guidance can be found in the ESC best practice guides.

http://www.esc.org.uk/fileadmin/user_upload/documents/industry/best_practice/BestPracticeGuide4-Locked.pdf

I do hope you havent been doing PIR's to the wrong standard for the past 4 months?

I carry out periodic inspections on commercial and industrial sites day to day but have always got questions that need...
Doc H.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
rcd protection is not needed for sockets supplying specific equipment. Ie. aerial booster in the loft.

 
Hi doc thanks for your reply sorry you are dead right I meant code 3.I keep slipping back into last years regs but that Esc best practise guide you sent was the old issue 2a we should now be using issue 3 you are getting as bad as me. But don't you think it's a bit harsh to be flagging up every socket for not having an Rcd even if it is a P3

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 23:05 ---------- Previous post was made at 23:00 ----------

Hi Noz so how would you define a premises under the control of a competent person. Would that for example cover a complete site if there is an electrician on site or a school for example if the caretaker or handyman has some sort of electrical qualification?

 
Hi doc thanks for your reply sorry you are dead right I meant code 3.I keep slipping back into last years regs but that Esc best practice guide you sent was the old issue 2a we should now be using issue 3 you are getting as bad as me. But don't you think it's a bit harsh to be flagging up every socket for not having an Rcd even if it is a P3
That would be the as the ESC website still lists the old guide as well? Best practice guides : Electrical Safety Council for some obscure reason. As you say this guide is now current: http://www.esc.org.uk/fileadmin/user_upload/documents/industry/best_practice/BestPracticeGuide4-Locked.pdf Earlier post amended.

Doc H.

 
Hi doc thanks for your reply sorry you are dead right I meant code 3.I keep slipping back into last years regs but that Esc best practise guide you sent was the old issue 2a we should now be using issue 3 you are getting as bad as me. But don't you think it's a bit harsh to be flagging up every socket for not having an Rcd even if it is a P3---------- Post Auto-Merged at 23:05 ---------- Previous post was made at 23:00 ----------

Hi Noz so how would you define a premises under the control of a competent person. Would that for example cover a complete site if there is an electrician on site or a school for example if the caretaker or handyman has some sort of electrical qualification?
It's a poor reg in my opinion, it's too open to abuse.... I certainly don't think I would apply it to a domestic ...

 
Thanks for all your replys guys but I'm still none the wiser as to which premises I should flag this fault up as it is such a stupid reg which can be interpreted so differently by any individual? Doc H as I'm new to this site excuse my ignorance but what do you mean by thread moved from testers sub forum and where does it get moved to, does that mean end of discussion on this subject.

 
It "can" apply to domestic for example that given by Sellers above, or a dedicated socket outlet for perhaps a freezer, if appropriately labelled.

However in general it is not meant for domestic situations.

It can be applied to almost any industrial situation, and most commercial, schools where children have access to socket outlets could be an exception which does require RCD protection.

Wirybox, You are the competent person undertaking the inspection mate, you will need to code as you see fit, then you must be able to justify this coding with reference to a Reg No. and if it all goes smelly, be prepared to stand by this in the dock and explain the rationale behind your decision from first principles.

As an aside:

I would suggest that anyone undertaking PIR's in industrial and commercial situations has a good understanding of the relevant ACoP's, CoP's, other HSE guidance and the relevant sections of applicable statute law.

 
Thanks for all your replys guys but I'm still none the wiser as to which premises I should flag this fault up as it is such a stupid reg which can be interpreted so differently by any individual? Doc H as I'm new to this site excuse my ignorance but what do you mean by thread moved from testers sub forum and where does it get moved to, does that mean end of discussion on this subject.
No, Doc Hudson moved the thread because it was posted in a sub forum, it has been moved to the correct forum for this type of question. The forum you posted this question in was for Testers, which is for particular questions relating to the make and type of testers available and not the person. This thread is not closed and further discussion is welcome.

 
Hi All,

I cannot for the life of me see how there can be any confusion at all as to when an RCD is needed for the protection of sockets........

The regs are PERFECTLY clear......

Where are they needed?? [and i am talking PURELY about sockets here]

"socket outlets with a rated current not exceeding 20 A that are for use by ordinary persons and are intended for general use"

How much more clear could it be.........

However, there IS an exception, and that is:

1, "Socket outlets for use under the supervision of skilled or instructed persons, e.g. in some commercial or industrial locations"

2, "A specifically labeled or otherwise suitably identified socket outlet provided for connection of a particular item of equipment"

Taking the second one first [eh!] In a domestic situation this would be intended for, say, a freezer, where a "nuisance" trip and your freezer defrosting all night would not be good!!

As to using this exception, you would, in the case of someone getting hurt have to justify your use of it, so you cannot just use it where convenient, e.g.running a new circuit out to a conservatory or extension and labelling it "Telly"

Back to the first one; the "skilled or instructed persons" in industry etc one.

This, in my opinion, ONLY refers to sockets provided in a commercial location where an RCD would be a disadvantage for some technical reason, or perhaps sockets feeding rows of refrigerators in a shop.

[Remember, the first exception said "a particular item of equipment" It did not say "particular items of equipment"] OR where the users of the sockets THEMSELVES, remember, it says "Socket outlets for use" are "skilled or instructed persons" [The users of the refrigerators in a shop could not fairly be said to be "using" the sockets]

As to the meaning of "skilled or instructed persons" this obviously means people that are using sockets, that, for whatever technical reason, require NOT to have RCD protection, and that have been suitably trained as to the implications of this.

It is not a blanket exception as to having to provide RCD protection for sockets in industry...

I recently installed a 16A three phase socket in an industrial environment. It had to be RCD protected [i used an RCBO] as it was less than 20A. There are NO exceptions for sockets, three phase or otherwise, just because they are in a "works" Less than 20A = RCD

Could i, instead of installing the RCBO, attempted to rely on the workers being "skilled or instructed persons" instead ???

No, they were obviously skilled at what they do, but not in an electrical sense... For example; Say a particular worker had a black belt in Karate, would this reasonably be construed by a judge as a "skilled or instructed person" I think not....!!!!!!!!!!

john...

 
John,

Anyone working in a place of employment MUST under EAWR be an instructed person, end of story.

Thus there is no requirement to fit RCD's.

 
A very good post apprentice87, however there are some slight differences as I will explain.

The regulations did note that when installed in a commercial or industrial environment the duties under the HSE and statute laws places a duty of care on the employers to instruct and risk assess everything in the workplace. Most factories had a dedicated team of maintenance personnel who were responsible for the day to day running of all mechanical and electrical services. Any equipment taken into the workplace for instance would not be permitted for use unless it has passed a portable appliance test and is labelled as such, the worker/user will be instructed on how to unplug or plug in anything, if this training has not been provided then the duty holder or maintenance electrician would be the only person allowed to remove or insert a plug.

Cleaners sockets have always been an exception for two main reasons, the first is the fact that it is normal for this area to have a high turnover of staff, or outside contractors are used with their own electrical equipment being used. The second reason is the fact that cleaning is usually done outside what would be normal working hours and some basic protection had to be supplied so as to adhere to the owners responsibility to provide a safe working environment.

I would not like to guess the amount of commercial classed properties that fail in these duties, but it is the responsibility of the person who tests the installation to risk assess the environment and class each observation properly.

It is a little frustrating knowing that has electricians we perform our duties only to be ignored by the owners who have no idea how serious their failings can be.

Or what he said above :)

 
After reading this John you say there can be no confusion I am even more confused than ever. Sidewinder is saying there is no need for Rcd's as everyone in industry is instructed and you John are saying there is only few exceptions where Rcd's shall be omitted. If it was that straightforward why such a lengthy post it is not clear cut by far and how do we know who is instructed or not, sometimes we inspect factories without even seeing the operatives. We could be inspecting on shut down periods or weekends for example we don't know who works there they could be disabled, trainees etc

 
Top