Replacing an old Dorman Smith Loadmaster consumer unit

[onerous]

Hello

Flat is having a new kitchen fitted, and the electric consumer unit needs to be fitted with an RCD.

The flat has, what I believe to be, a Dorman Smith Loadmaster consumer unit sunk in to a wall in a hallway.  Thinking about keeping things neat and tidy, so was thinking that I could remove the holder screwed in to the box and install a din rail and then install MCD for the limited number of circuits.

Is this just a stupid idea?

 

[onerous]

Here is a link to a photo of the consumer unit:

 

[Evans Electric]

In a nutshell ...yes . 

Not seen the job obviously  but initial thoughts are to mount a modern C/U  over that hole .

Those boards are lethal with the cover off .  

Creating your own Consumer Unit  raises the problem of you becoming a manufacturer  , carrying out load testing  , flash testing  etc on your creation .  

 

[Geoff1946]

I very much doubt if a modern equivalent could be fitted into that space.

 In principle a single RCD covering everything could be added by the meter, at the source end of those tails, but do consider how old the installation is.  Perhaps you are due a full overhaul.

 

[Phoenix]

Nice, Type 4 MCBs, and nicely set into the wall with conduits running into it

Of course the easy / cheat way is just get a new board, put a few 2" bushes with locknuts in the back and fix it over the top of the existing recessed box, depends on whether this would cause an obstruction or not though

I wonder if @SBS Dave could build something up to suit with the miniture RCBOs he supplies, the cover might be tricky would probably need a steel frame which bolts onto the four existing fixings, and has 2 tapped holes to suit the captive fixings of the cover from a donor enclosure, You'd also need way to fix the DIN rail at the right height, if you can envisage exactly what you need, draw a dimensioned drawing and takee it to a fabricator to get made up

On bigger jobs with board which ca't be fully ripped out, often you get a panel building firm involved, you isolate and disconnect circuits, they rip out the inards of the baord, and replace with pan assemby from one of the major manufacturers, then yoyu reconnect and test. Would be over the time pricewise for a small domestic board like this though!

 

[Evans Electric]

Not many earth wires in there so I assume the conduit is the earthing . 

Is it possible to mount a new board on top of that  without  people walking into it . 

Could you fit one on the other side of the wall ?  

An alternative is to knock out the existing ,  buy a flush board , drill it out to match the conduits ,     ( Use the original top plate as a template)   make sure you save the 3/4"  bushes .     New board probably twice the size of that one .  

 

[Doc Hudson]

Who is actually doing the work, signing the electrical certificates and notifying for Part-p compliance?  As they would ultimately be the one carrying the can should it all go pear shaped, so it is their decision irrespective of what anyone on the internet suggest is acceptable or not.

Doc H.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Hello

Flat is having a new kitchen fitted, and the electric consumer unit needs to be fitted with an RCD.

The flat has, what I believe to be, a Dorman Smith Loadmaster consumer unit sunk in to a wall in a hallway.  Thinking about keeping things neat and tidy, so was thinking that I could remove the holder screwed in to the box and install a din rail and then install MCD for the limited number of circuits.

Is this just a stupid idea?

So just to clarify...

1]  You are spending a reasonable amount of your hard earned money on some new kitchen cupboards....

(that probably in a worst case scenario may break your finger nail in a draw front... Or bruise your leg walking into an open door..)

2] The one item in your flat that should be designed and tested to protect you + family + friends + visitors from electrical injuries such as;  burns/shock/death...

You are trying to save a few pounds by doing some half baked cobbled together arrangement because you think it may look a bit neater!

Electricity will quite happily kill you in less than half a second..  or burn down your home if not designed, installed and tested correctly!

If I were you I would postpone the kitchen refurb if you cannot afford to do the electrics correctly to a safe standard.

If you want a flush fitted board...

buy a pukka flush board and if necessary cut and/or fill a few bits of wall so that it can fit back in nice and neat...

Otherwise just convert to a surface CU as a few others have mentiond.

Guinness

p.s.  Yes your original idea is stupid.

 

[onerous]

In a nutshell ...yes . 

Not seen the job obviously  but initial thoughts are to mount a modern C/U  over that hole .

Those boards are lethal with the cover off .  

Creating your own Consumer Unit  raises the problem of you becoming a manufacturer  , carrying out load testing  , flash testing  etc on your creation .  

Thanks for the reply,  the cover is off for the photo.  Never though that of the creating a fuse box.  Thought I could get away with a hybrid of two as the back of the box is metal.

I very much doubt if a modern equivalent could be fitted into that space.

 In principle a single RCD covering everything could be added by the meter, at the source end of those tails, but do consider how old the installation is.  Perhaps you are due a full overhaul.

Thank you for the reply, I didn't think of the size issue, but you are right.  Think the initial thing with be an RCD with replacement tails.

Nice, Type 4 MCBs, and nicely set into the wall with conduits running into it

Of course the easy / cheat way is just get a new board, put a few 2" bushes with locknuts in the back and fix it over the top of the existing recessed box, depends on whether this would cause an obstruction or not though

I wonder if @SBS Dave could build something up to suit with the miniture RCBOs he supplies, the cover might be tricky would probably need a steel frame which bolts onto the four existing fixings, and has 2 tapped holes to suit the captive fixings of the cover from a donor enclosure, You'd also need way to fix the DIN rail at the right height, if you can envisage exactly what you need, draw a dimensioned drawing and takee it to a fabricator to get made up

On bigger jobs with board which ca't be fully ripped out, often you get a panel building firm involved, you isolate and disconnect circuits, they rip out the inards of the baord, and replace with pan assemby from one of the major manufacturers, then yoyu reconnect and test. Would be over the time pricewise for a small domestic board like this though!

Ah can you send me   a link to @sbs Dave idea.  Not to sure about removing the back box stuck in the wall, and not having nice hatch in to the neighbors flat.

Not many earth wires in there so I assume the conduit is the earthing . 

Is it possible to mount a new board on top of that  without  people walking into it . 

Could you fit one on the other side of the wall ?  

An alternative is to knock out the existing ,  buy a flush board , drill it out to match the conduits ,     ( Use the original top plate as a template)   make sure you save the 3/4"  bushes .     New board probably twice the size of that one .  

There are earth wires at all levels.  The earths are also connected to back boxes as well as the units.  Have checked, as light switches were replaced with stainless steel ones and a few were a little tingly to touch.  Took a few days to find the missing earth connection.

Who is actually doing the work, signing the electrical certificates and notifying for Part-p compliance?  As they would ultimately be the one carrying the can should it all go pear shaped, so it is their decision irrespective of what anyone on the internet suggest is acceptable or not.

Doc H.

Thanks for the reply, part of me is a little afraid as the whole system is a little interesting, some one who was supposed to be competent (qualified)has made some interesting modifications.

Been told that the minimum is a RCCD? haven't got the paperwork to hand, for a flat fee of £300.

So just to clarify...

1]  You are spending a reasonable amount of your hard earned money on some new kitchen cupboards....

(that probably in a worst case scenario may break your finger nail in a draw front... Or bruise your leg walking into an open door..)

2] The one item in your flat that should be designed and tested to protect you + family + friends + visitors from electrical injuries such as;  burns/shock/death...

You are trying to save a few pounds by doing some half baked cobbled together arrangement because you think it may look a bit neater!

Electricity will quite happily kill you in less than half a second..  or burn down your home if not designed, installed and tested correctly!

If I were you I would postpone the kitchen refurb if you cannot afford to do the electrics correctly to a safe standard.

If you want a flush fitted board...

buy a pukka flush board and if necessary cut and/or fill a few bits of wall so that it can fit back in nice and neat...

Otherwise just convert to a surface CU as a few others have mentiond.

Guinness

p.s.  Yes your original idea is stupid.

Thank you for the reply.

1- Yeah lets not get started on that.

2- That is another very grey area.  See earlier comment.

3. I have asked, and am looking for ideas hence asking.  Part of me wants to rewire the flat with more rcd so that every room is covered by it's own ring and mcd.  Have rewired houses in the past and installed consumer units.  Quite a few times having had to repair/replace paid electricians work.

 

[Andy™]

1- Yeah lets not get started on that.

2- That is another very grey area.  See earlier comment.

why not? both very valid points that most people want to brush away. spend thousands makignt he house look nice but neglect the stuff that will kill / burn the house down because it doesnt look as good as a shiney new kitche etc

 

[Evans Electric]

Just thinking aloud ..........  all your wiring is in conduit so the RCD for buried cables doesn't enter the equation . 

 

[onerous]

why not? both very valid points that most people want to brush away. spend thousands makignt he house look nice but neglect the stuff that will kill / burn the house down because it doesnt look as good as a shiney new kitche etc

The issue is what I want to do. Rewire the kitchen, plumb all the drains to have a decent drop to soil stack, re pipe the cold water inlet so that the pipes are the full bore and not smaller bore and move/remove the kitchen area stop tap as it is not needed IMO as the main stop is so close by. The heating pipes run under the concrete floor and was thinking of installing push fit pipework behind the units, incase another problem arises with the heating pipes.  Like the idea of underfloor heating in the kitchen instead of cold tiles....

 

[Andy™]

The issue is what I want to do. Rewire the kitchen, plumb all the drains to have a decent drop to soil stack, re pipe the cold water inlet so that the pipes are the full bore and not smaller bore and move/remove the kitchen area stop tap as it is not needed IMO as the main stop is so close by. The heating pipes run under the concrete floor and was thinking of installing push fit pipework behind the units, incase another problem arises with the heating pipes.  Like the idea of underfloor heating in the kitchen instead of cold tiles....

exactly, you want to do everything else as best as possible but do the bare minimum on the cheap for the electrics

 

[onerous]

Just thinking aloud ..........  all your wiring is in conduit so the RCD for buried cables doesn't enter the equation . 

No idea, paperwork says RCD to be fitted.

exactly, you want to do everything else as best as possible but do the bare minimum on the cheap for the electrics

Sorry wasn't clear, that is the list of things I want to do but none of that is happening....

 

[Evans Electric]

Just thinking aloud ..........  all your wiring is in conduit so the RCD for buried cables doesn't enter the equation . 

It means you'd still need an RCD for sockets  , shower .   It just another Reg  that wiring buried in a wall must be protected by an RCD  unless its 50mm deep or has an metallic screen.  

Can I ask again ,  is it possible to fit a surface board on top of the Dorman Smith  ?    

 

[onerous]

It means you'd still need an RCD for sockets  , shower .   It just another Reg  that wiring buried in a wall must be protected by an RCD  unless its 50mm deep or has an metallic screen.  

Can I ask again ,  is it possible to fit a surface board on top of the Dorman Smith  ?    

Yes, a surface board can be fitted.  Part of me thinks that the cables won't reach, hence probably needing a full rewire.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Part of me wants to rewire the flat with more rcd so that every room is covered by it's own ring and mcd.  Have rewired houses in the past and installed consumer units.  Quite a few times having had to repair/replace paid electricians work.

Ring...  every room???

mcd...  ??????

From comments so far you don't sound competent enough to rewire anything properly... 

2- That is another very grey area.  See earlier comment. 

Nothing grey about putting correctly designed and safety tested equipment compliant with all current standards...

Which any self build arrangement if done will not be.

Just thinking aloud ..........  all your wiring is in conduit so the RCD for buried cables doesn't enter the equation . 

Still need RCDs for ALL circuits supplying bathroom, All socket outlets...

Cheapest solution got to be a full RCBO board.

Guinness

 

[Andy™]

Yes, a surface board can be fitted.  Part of me thinks that the cables won't reach, hence probably needing a full rewire.

erm... you do know you can extend cables, dont you?

 

[Evans Electric]

Cheapest solution got to be a full RCBO board.

I agree .  

Now we know theres room  , thats the way to go .    Existing wiring can be extended to reach new board  , or you could rewire , through the conduits , with 6491X  

You don't need a ring main in every room , that,s nonsense  TBH.  

 

[onerous]

Ring...  every room???

mcd...  ??????

From comments so far you don't sound competent enough to rewire anything properly...

This is something I quite like, having had some interesting diy in a house in France, was nice knowing which room to check.  It is a something that part of me likes that.  I also hate having trailing extension leads with many things plugged in to a single socket, and having trip hazards.  Part of me likes the idea of having things like a washing machine and dishwasher on separate circuits. Would like them to be in different rooms too.  But in this case it is me and wishful thinking.

Nothing grey about putting correctly designed and safety tested equipment compliant with all current standards...

Which any self build arrangement if done will not be.

Am afriad of what is hiding.  Things like access points in the conduit having been artexed over etc.  

Still need RCDs for ALL circuits supplying bathroom, All socket outlets...

Cheapest solution got to be a full RCBO board.

Guinness 

Think that is I'm heading.

Recommendations on boxes, used to like Hager, as MK quality seemed to have dropped and not be worth the premium. This was a while ago. But no idea who is good

erm... you do know you can extend cables, dont you?

Yes, but is it good practice to connect cables of unknown age, similar to the consumer unit and varying ages for other bits?   Have found a new love for wago type connectors tho.

I agree .  

Now we know theres room  , thats the way to go .    Existing wiring can be extended to reach new board  , or you could rewire , through the conduits , with 6491X  

You don't need a ring main in every room , that,s nonsense  TBH.  

Recommendations for a unit maker.

Actually what would you go for.  So far the breaker are for cooker, upper ring main,  lower ring main, upper light and lower lights.