Ring or radial please?

[Retired]

Hi,

Many thanks SPECIAL LOCATION and hindsight is truly wonderful; if only I had asked on this forum before buying the BG consumer unit I would have fully upgraded to RCBO as you kindly suggest. I thought I had bought the latest CU it being metal clad and fully compliant and was a split type with RCD's; considering my usual luck though had I asked first then bought the all singing all dancing up to the minute CU bristling with RCBO's then by the time I arrived home and unpacked it there would be an upgrade on the market?

I realize I'm dragging my heels in installing this new CU but illness slows me down a great deal; I'm almost 70 years old and have suffered illness all my life from being born with asthma; later having major surgery for Crohn's and over the last few years severe dermatitis; I like to be different so why not enjoy illnesses with no cure? These are just an example. I'm not moaning but just over two months ago a friend kindly baked me a chocolate cake; I'm intolerant of all things dairy and my friend is well aware of my health problems and last year I was admitted as an emergency in terrific pain to hospital it taking three days whilst I was hooked up to NASA before being allowed home; this friend has always used dark chocolate which I'm fine with;  I enjoyed scoffing a piece of this cake but the morning after; all the front and back of my main body together with the back of both knees dramatically flared up in a powerful rash; I felt very ill indeed; as I sat at the computer feeling a little sorry for myself I was about to scoff another lump of this cake when Bron now saw it in bright daylight saying that looks like dairy milk chocolate; I'm hopelessly colour blind as well; I pulled out a bar of dark chocolate from my desk to compare and sure enough the cake was smothered in dairy milk chocolate; I immediately emailed my friend who admitted she had made a mistake and apologized. A simple mistake and it's knocked me back to worse than I was before; it took two weeks for the body rash to subside then came two days of intense internal pain as the chocolate worked through my system now the dermatitis has settled on the back of my knees; I detest visiting doctors but this flare up is so bad over two months later I'm on double dose powerful ointment and I think the rash is finally subsiding. I had the Crohn's operation in 1982; it will never cure the Crohn's so now I'm attacked from two directions; internal pain which last year doubled me over in agony reducing me to tears and taking the ambulance crew ages before they could get enough pain killer into me allowing me to be carted off or a big flare up of dermatitis; no half measures with anything in my life.

I've been in and out of hospital many times and I don't trust doctors or specialists; many years  ago I visited the skin clinic at Huddersfield Royal Infirmary; lots of patches were attached to my arm but everything appeared OK; I then asked to be referred privately to The Nuffield also in Huddersfield; lo and behold if the specialist wasn't the same person who now charged £100 for 30 minutes to diagnose eczema; unhappy with this and still being ill I asked for further tests and was referred over to Leeds General; on the Monday I was loaded up with so many patches they ran out of arm space and stuck more onto my back; on Wednesday half the patches were removed with no indicated problems; on Friday the rest of the patches were removed; WOW I have slight reaction to Formaldehyde? Who wouldn't have a reaction to this? Feeling more dead than alive with my skin falling away like snow  I did the complete circle visiting my GP once again who asked of me "Are you really so bad" I didn't visit the surgery again for over twelve years; my GP popped up on the TV news; he was in court after being arrested for drunken brawling on his luxury yacht; shortly after the last visit twelve years ago to the surgery Bron was reading a girlie magazine and came across a reference to "Dairy intolerance" we bought a book the day after and two days later I was 80% cured by switching over to Soya dumping dairy products. Bron did what the full might of the NHS couldn't do.

A couple of weeks ago with my GP I mentioned perhaps I'm deficient in vitamin B12 due to the Crohn's operation?

http://www.progressivehealth.com/does-vitamin-b12-contribute-to-crohns.htm

The GP didn't think I was but to be safe sent me for a blood test which I took about two weeks ago; now for the results of the test bearing in mind I'm almost 70 and haven't bothered the surgery for 12 years; the next appointment with your GP will be 6th July which is soonest or you can come down on the 26th of June in the hope of securing a same day appointment; I've opted for the same day appointment and if I'm unsuccessful do I then have to wait another month? There is a rolling electronic message in the surgery declaring doctors appointments are for ten minutes only which infuriates me knowing I've only ever had time off work when I've been in hospital and have paid my dues in full; I want a cure not a patch up job with ointments just to get me out of the surgery; I'm sick of all this illness.

Am I moaning? Please see the pictures below of my legs at the flare when I was discharged from hospital; just the backs of my knees are now troubling me and guess how much I love kneeling; crouching and crawling under the bungalow to sort this wiring out; I'm not depressed I'm just angry and fed up because if I was well I could really get stuck into some projects; I never give in though and am forever busy; what's a bit of pain anyway; I'm still standing. I'm starting to feel better again so hopefully can install the CU shortly; because I feel ill doesn't mean I'm rushing jobs; I do my best with everything I have a go at; second best isn't an option. Sorry if I'm boring but just an insight to what it takes for me to do a job.

Kind regards, Colin.

 

[apprentice87]

Bloody hell!! That looks terrible.... Fair play to you though, a lot of people would just feel sorry for themselves. All the stuff you do though, i think it is absolutely amazing and is certainly an inspiration, to me at least...

john...

 

[roys]

Looks sore Col, hope it settles down soon.

PS Don't try hitch hiking by showing that leg, Take it easy.

 

[OnOff]

Quite seriously but are you aware of the trials of fecal matter transplants for Chron's?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-3605345/Could-poop-transplants-cure-painful-inflammatory-bowel-disease-Treatment-eradicates-symptoms-ulcerative-colitis.html

This was reported in the proper papers too btw.

On a less serious note I'm sure we'd all be willing to "donate"!

 

[Retired]

Hi,

Thanks for your kind words apprentice87; much appreciated.

Thanks roys; yes as apprentice87 says it is terrible and it really does like me a great deal because I have so much trouble trying to get rid of it. I think if I waved my legs around in public I'd be carted off to quarantine in case I was highly contagious and might start a huge epidemic? 

Many thanks Onoff for taking the time to add the link regarding Crohn's; unfortunately I've already suffered the big operation and now my main problem is that I'm unable to absorb some of the benefits of food such as possibly B12 deficiency due to the missing length of bowel; I accept there is no cure in my case and have to accept the way I am; it's not all bad by any means; I've got a wonderful wife in Bron and we have a good lifestyle in our detached bungalow; I've been retired 16 years by Bron's side and apart from constant health problems we do OK wanting for nothing; on a good day I can get stuck into projects or take Bron out for some retail therapy; I've got an enviable workshop crammed with kit and at the moment we own a year old Yeti SEL 2.0L diesel which we bought new last year trading in our two year old Fabia Monte Carlo. It would be easy to become depressed and sit in front of the TV all day watching wall to wall sport which I detest so illness isn't going to stop me doing anything; yes it will slow me down at times to a virtual standstill but then I get mad enough to break free of it when willpower takes over; the ointment is now starting to work at last and its nice to bend my legs without the skin feeling like dry parchment; I think the thing to do is to make the best of what's available and just get on with it.

I will install this CU however long it takes; I'll not give in and pay someone to do work I'm capable of doing; these jobs and Bron keep me going.

Thanks guys.

Kind regards, Col.

 

[OnOff]

Pretty sure the wifes cousin has been partly replumbed in plastic due to Chrons. 

 

[OnOff]

Double post. 

 

[Retired]

Hi,

Yesterday morning I was so fed up of the dermatitis upsetting all my plans and making life a misery I wandered down to the garage saying enough is enough and at 8:30 I was pulling the old CU's out; the incoming 6 way and the garage two way; unlike 25 years ago when I last did this job doing it "live" I pulled the mains fuse killing the lot before it killed me. THIS IS DEFINITELY NOT A PROJECT FOR A NOVICE TO UNDERTAKE AND I WILL NEVER ENCOURAGE SUCH ACTIONS BECAUSE A SIMPLE MISTAKE COULD PROVE FATAL.

The day was forecast hot so I was under some pressure to get on with the job before the fridge defrosted; as I disconnected each cable I clearly marked it for identification; with both CU's now out and the incoming fuse and meter unscrewed  I removed the mounting boards giving me a clean wall allowing me to start from scratch. I had already made a nice plywood mounting board with a Roman Ogee moulding around its edges and pre-drilled at four points plus I had attached wooden stand-offs with glue at the mounting points these were to bring the board in line with the incoming fuse unit etc. Propping a length of timber against the wall at the height of the mounting board bottom to temporarily support the mounting board I slid in the mounting board and spotted the wall using my cordless drill with a masonry bit installed; the mounting board was withdrawn and the holes drilled at 6mm to accept Torx type heavy screws which go straight into masonry without the need for wall plugs;

With the mounting board now secured I needed to attach the incoming fuse unit and meter etc for safety; I didn't want these swinging around. All the dangling cables were then tied up to the central heating pipes running across the ceiling to get them out of the way whilst the new CU was installed; again I had pre-drilled but decided to drop the CU a bit to give more space between its top and the ceiling. It's amazing how time slips by; the new 25mm +16mm tails had purposely been left extra long in fact these were 2m; I knew if I cut them before installing the CU then they would be cut too short so the extra hassle was worth it.

Next job was to install the new incoming isolator between mains fuse and the CU; cutting the tails using an hacksaw was fun but highly effective; now how do I neatly trim back the insulation on the tails; the lengths to be trimmed were in the instructions so no guessing; what if I can use my pipe cutter? Well it worked a treat and the pipe cutter was used with great care as it was gently run around the two 25mm tails; the outer insulation was firstly trimmed back then the inner insulation to expose the conductors but without causing any damage to the conductors; a Stanley knife was used to slit the waste. With the CU now connected to the top of the isolator it was much easier to connect the main fuse to the isolator because I could cut the tails to length in the vice. 

By now it was warming up outside and the clock was definitely ticking; by 1.0 o'clock the ring main and cooker circuits had been installed and I was absolutely worn out having worked myself to a standstill; I was all in but now the worst was over and dinner could be made. After a two hour dinner and rest I felt much better so resumed work again and knocked off at 6:30 with more circuits now connected. What an hard day but a most satisfying one; dermatitis; what dermatitis; I had completely forgotten about it and although I was tired out I felt much better on myself.

This morning I was on the job by 7:30 sorting more circuits out; I had been puzzled why three cables were connected into the 32A ring main; whilst the cables were loose I hooked up the cable tracer injecting a tone which instantly found the ring main isolating the third cable; as there wasn't any continuity through the third cable I isolated it to sort it out later; this third cable was also 2.5mm T&E. With power back on again I quickly found all the sockets to our rear two roomed extension were dead so now I know what the third cable was for; there are two double and one single socket but 32A is a lot too much for these on a single cable so today I've been extending the cable as it was too short for the new CU and the extension sockets will now have their own 16A mcb.

I can now relax and take my time; I've done some circuit changes in the garage and got the garage power ring  up and running plus I've had to replace two lengths of garage lighting cable because these were too short but it's now all ready for the final push tomorrow morning; Bron suffers a great deal with too much heat so I put the power back on at dinner time today and left it on so that Bron could use the fan to make her more comfortable; I'm not in a hurry so another day or two doesn't matter but I'm ensuring everything is totally safe with no live cables dangling around.

In the end I used Wiska glands which are suitable for flat cable; I had bought two packs of Wiska grommet type entries but these look rather flimsy to me although they would have been much easier and quicker to use; I'm never into easy or quick and I'm enjoying this job. The 16mm earth cable was connected securely as was the pipe bonding earth these two were connected yesterday morning before first power up because they are incredibly important.

One problem I encountered was the knockouts; I wanted to use 25mm Wiska glands to accept a pair of cables each but the two big knockouts were 30mm? I tried using a metal cutting hole hole saw in the cordless drill but this was much too clumsy and I thought it was like bodging; next I tried using a brand new stepped drill which worked but then it pulled out the knockout; drat it I now had a huge hole the 25mm gland fell through; do it the hard way as usual I pulled out four thin large diameter steel washers with a small hole in each; I mounted each in turn in the lathe chuck and mounted the stepped drill in the tailstock; now I could open up the holes to an accuracy of a tenth of a thou if needed; it's handy having lathes; with a washer each side of the enclosure the new 25mm glands were finally installed. I installed the full complement of glands at the top of the CU whilst it was convenient on the bench; any unused glands will be blanked against fire.

I can't stress enough just how dangerous this job would be for a novice to attempt and once the old CU's were removed there was no going back; all it takes is to lose one of the cable markers to throw the job out and working with the electric isolated means a lot of pressure is on for meals and washing etc; no hot water whilst the boiler is down and no lights; I've spent hours cable tracing and crawling under the bungalow and lifting floorboards in the wardrobes just to gain enough cable length  because the new CU is much bigger than the old CU; believe me this is a big job with so much to go wrong. If the plot is lost it's going to cost a fortune to get it sorted out; novices please read this then get a sparky in up front and let the sparky take the pressure; MONEY CANNOT BUY LIFE.

Once the new CU is fully installed then I can sort the new ring main for the kitchen at my leisure; what a difference though it's now looking much neater. I've no paper qualifications regarding working with electrics but I've been working on and off as required with electrics for the last 55 years and know the dangers.

Strangely as I sit here I feel much better so hopefully my dermatitis is finally  relenting; what a joy just to bend my legs without the skin at the back of my knees feeling like dry parchment.

Kind regards, Colin.

 

[steptoe]

@Retired

Not wanting to piss on your parade

But how did you remove the tails from the meter without committing a criminal offence,?

Also, you have made absolutely no mention of any testing before energising any of the circuits you re-connected.

There are some other issues, but I don't wish to go into those at present, 

I'm not wanting to be a sad sack here,

But there are so many things as to not arise worries about how dangerous what you are doing, never mind the grey areas of the law

 

[steptoe]

Having enlarged your pictures,

Its very clear there is a warning of you activity on a sticker on the DNO equipment,

At what point did you think it was

Sensible to ignore such warnings

Break the law

Expose others to potentially lethal circumstances

simply think you were above the law or think you were better than anyone else

:C

 

[Tony S]

I’ve got to agree with you @steptoe

 

[Retired]

Hi,

Many thanks steptoe and Tony S; I couldn't agree with you more and is the reason why I posted what I've done to deter others from attempting such work; I expected being jumped upon and rightly so. 

Kind regards, Colin.

 

[Blue Duck]

Oi got them stickers all over my service head, never touched it, It's cast iron full of asbestos and killer ants with rabies , I'm not going near it, neither are UKPN it seems....

 

[kerching]

Is this  not notifiable to,LBC under Part P of Building Regs?

this may already have been covered

 

[Kurt]

Think he already said he pulled the main fuse. Talking of which, i was recently preparing a new TP 100A install , ready for a new shiny meter. The service head was a Henley. It had two of the tiniest little holes to put an earth cable in to the Neutral block. I was approaching with 25sqmm earth cable, no way was that going in. I had to snip the seal on L3 to pull the fuse carrier out to reveal a single screw that enabled me to remove the Neutral block cover so i could get the earth cable in to the appropriate sized hole. What a faff. Pretty relaxed as the meter man will have to pull all three anyway but sometimes quite frankly DNO dont help themselves to help us humble client side sparkies do the "right" thing.

 

[Retired]

Hi,

Yes I did pull the main fuse. Once I've completed the job I'll get a sparky in to fully test and do all the necessary paperwork and the sparky will be an independent  not a friend; our neighbour has recommended two sparky's  so I'll use one of these.

The garage lights are on their own 6A circuit (5 x 2' square LED panels)  and have worked fine for many years but I've just connected into the new CU and there is a fault which tripped the mcb and RCD so a bit of checking is called for  then I can put the cover on and call the sparky; I never had the intention of doing the work then sitting back assuming everything would be perfect; it's possible doing this work myself would invalidate the house insurance should anything untoward happen regarding an electrical fault. The cooker cable earth still needs sleeving which I'll buy also I realized I can't count so I've just been putting the earths and neutral under their correct number. I'm indebted to the forum member who brought my attention to mains isolators and I'm pleased one is now installed allowing total isolation at the mains killing the CU. When I pulled the mains fuse I did not break the paper seal; this was broken when our new digital meter was installed and the unit never resealed; I did snip the metal seal after all I did it for safety whilst I did the job. I just hope my story deters novices from attempting such work because for the money involved it's just not worth the risk; I'll be paying a sparky anyway to do the testing and I'll update once the testing is done which should highlight any errors or emissions on my part; I'm sure lots of novices are tempted but PLEASE CALL IN AN ELECTRICIAN THE RISK SIMPLY ISN'T WORTH IT.

Kind regards, Colin.

 

[steptoe]

Hi,

Yes I did pull the main fuse. Once I've completed the job I'll get a sparky in to fully test and do all the necessary paperwork and the sparky will be an independent  not a friend; our neighbour has recommended two sparky's  so I'll use one of these.

The garage lights are on their own 6A circuit (5 x 2' square LED panels)  and have worked fine for many years but I've just connected into the new CU and there is a fault which tripped the mcb and RCD so a bit of checking is called for  then I can put the cover on and call the sparky; I never had the intention of doing the work then sitting back assuming everything would be perfect; it's possible doing this work myself would invalidate the house insurance should anything untoward happen regarding an electrical fault. The cooker cable earth still needs sleeving which I'll buy also I realized I can't count so I've just been putting the earths and neutral under their correct number. I'm indebted to the forum member who brought my attention to mains isolators and I'm pleased one is now installed allowing total isolation at the mains killing the CU. When I pulled the mains fuse I did not break the paper seal; this was broken when our new digital meter was installed and the unit never resealed; I did snip the metal seal after all I did it for safety whilst I did the job. I just hope my story deters novices from attempting such work because for the money involved it's just not worth the risk; I'll be paying a sparky anyway to do the testing and I'll update once the testing is done which should highlight any errors or emissions on my part; I'm sure lots of novices are tempted but PLEASE CALL IN AN ELECTRICIAN THE RISK SIMPLY ISN'T WORTH IT.

Kind regards, Colin.

It costs a mere £70 to have an isolator properly and legally fitted (in this area anyway)

Cutting the seals and removing the main fuse is ILLEGAL ,

there is no excuse for safety under the circumstances you describe, there are proper procedures and channels that should be followed.

EDIT : most electricians are not permitted to sign off 3rd party work, and most are unwilling to anyway.

 

[kerching]

Well, up here anyway, it is illegal

to interfere with DNO equipment i.e. Fuse AND an even bigger NO NO is tampering with the meter

the piece of wood that the DNO kit is mounted on is the property of the DNO

private equipment should NOT be mounted on this board

Interference with the service head is not only illegal,it is really REALLY dangerous. There are some heads that even the DNO will not touch without disconnecting service upstream

some heads contain asbestos

conncting without testing is never a good idea as any latent faults will,still be there up until,the point that they are identified and resolved during testing

how is this work to be notified to Building Control Department

i/we would be interested to see any paperwork issued by the ."independent electrician"....obviously with all traceable info that obscured

sorry if this comes across as a bit harsh 

 

[Doc Hudson]

So does the new mounting board meet the fire retardant properties of the original mounting board that meters and cut-outs are normally mounted on?

As all work you do should comply with BS7671, how are you intending to ensure compliance with 421.1.201 for the isolator switch that you admit installing?

What on earth is going on with MCB / RCD / Main Switch labels stuck on the bus-bar shield?

Looking at the number of neutral bars available in that unit, it certainly is a poor design by only utilizing two RCD's. You could have comfortably fitted a couple of RCBO's and 3 RCD's and still have 12MCB circuits. If I had been using an enclosure that size, with that arrangement of neutral bars I would have probably done: Main switch / 2x RCBO / RCD+4x MCB / RCD+4x MCB / RCD+4x MCB,  Giving  a total of 14 circuits with a maximum of 4 off any one RCD. which in my opinion would have minimised inconvenience in the event of a single fault.   Compared to your arrangement of 16 circuits over 2 RCD's with a maximum possible 9 circuits being disconnected due to a fault on any one of those 9 circuits.

As Kerching said, it would be very interesting indeed to see a copy of an electrical installation certificate issued relating to this work.

Doc H. 

 

[kerching]

Looking at the number of neutral bars available in that unit, it certainly is a poor design by only utilizing two RCD's. You could have comfortably fitted a couple of RCBO's and 3 RCD's and still have 12MCB circuits. If I had been using an enclosure that size, with that arrangement of neutral bars I would have probably done: Main switch / 2x RCBO / RCD+4x MCB / RCD+4x MCB / RCD+4x MCB,  Giving  a total of 14 circuits with a maximum of 4 off any one RCD. which in my opinion would have minimised inconvenience in the event of a single fault.   Compared to your arrangement of 16 circuits over 2 RCD's with a maximum possible 9 circuits being disconnected due to a fault on any one of those 9 circuits.

Admittedly this would be a vast improvement over two RCDs and losing half the circuits AND any RCD is better than none! BUT I still maintain that more than one circuit on an RCD is a flawed design and only reduces inconvenience and does not minimise it.

I know it is probably me being picky.

energising without testing worries me a bit.

that REC   2 Isolator could be an issue as not installed by the DNO AND Plastic

also WHY disconnect from meter?

it is a favourite 'check' by the NICEIC on annual assessments.  "Temporary connection of circuits on a job, can I see the test results please, Sir??"

just saying