Sleeping In Motorway Services.

[D Skelton]

but they can take you to court for civil trespass,,,,,,

Property can't trespass, only people.

which is exactly what Id be doing if I park on your drive,

No, your car would be on my drive, cars can't trespass.

oh, and if you touch my vehicle I could sue you, unless you are a registered company, and have signs clearly displaying that I am not allowed to park there.

No you couldn't, you could only sue me if I damaged it in any way.

you cannot move my car/van, but, you could call the polis to move it if it is blocking your access.

Police have no authority as the road traffic act does not cover private land.

that is only how I understand it, but I could be very wrong..........

Yep, very wrong I'm afraid lol

No offence meant though

on that note,

how can companies place penalties on someone for a contract running over an agreed timescale then?

They can't, they can only charge for costs incurred as a result of the breach of contract.

I understood that although we mere mortals may call it a fine....

Technically it is a charge or an invoice for services used...

i.e.  purchasing greater than 2hours worth of parking......

Of which the agreed contract terms are clearly displayed around the facility you are using and agreeing to.

As said this not a new thing...

and has been a standard procedure for more years than I care to remember

If it was so unenforceable do you not think it would have been abandoned by now....???

The only reason private companies have't abandoned it is because they rely soley on the sheer ignorance of 99% of the general public. If we were all wise to it, they'd have no choice other than to either give up or install barriers at the entrance and exits of their car parks! lol

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

The only reason private companies have't abandoned it is because they rely soley on the sheer ignorance of 99% of the general public. If we were all wise to it, they'd have no choice other than to either give up or install barriers at the entrance and exits of their car parks! lol

Barriers bear NO relevance to the purchase of some goods or serivices....

It is perfectly normal and standard business practice to agree either a fixed price or a sliding scale price based on duration of time for the receipt of some goods or services...

Consider a hire agreement for some item of equiptment...

They give terms of £x per day or per hour...

the longer duration you keep the tool for the more you pay at the end when you have finished using it...

or you may agree to do some work for a customer on an hourly rate...

No different to you agreeing to purchase the use of a car park space when the first two hours are complimentary...

to say than any business cannot impose sliding scale charges for the receipt of some goods or services is implying the whole of commerce is unenforceable!!!!

:coat

 

[D Skelton]

Barriers bear NO relevance to the purchase of some goods or serivices....

It is perfectly normal and standard business practice to agree either a fixed price or a sliding scale price based on duration of time for the receipt of some goods or services...

Consider a hire agreement for some item of equiptment...

They give terms of £x per day or per hour...

the longer duration you keep the tool for the more you pay at the end when you have finished using it...

or you may agree to do some work for a customer on an hourly rate...

No different to you agreeing to purchase the use of a car park space when the first two hours are complimentary...

to say than any business cannot impose sliding scale charges for the receipt of some goods or services is implying the whole of commerce is unenforceable!!!!

:coat

I am not saying that business' cannot impose a charge for a service, I am saying that should the contract you enter into whilst purchasing that service be broken they cannot impose a financial penalty on you. All the business can claim for in the event of a breach of contract is the cost of the service provided and any reasonable costs incurred by the payment not being made and any costs incurred by the business whilst trying to collect that payment.

A 'parking charge notice' issued by a private company to the driver of a vehicle is nothing but an invoice for the financial penalty of breaching their contract. It is not an invoice for costs incurred by the business and it is for this reason that they are completely and utterly unenforcable.

Last time I checked, of the small handfull that have tried, not a single parking company in the UK has ever taken a person to court for non payment of an invoice imposing a financial penalty and won!

Trust me when I say this, I have had literally hundreds of 'tickets' from private parking companies over the years and every single one of them has ended up in the bin! And guess what, other than one or two threatening but laughable letters (bailiffs, county court, criminal proceedings... blah blah blah...) nothing has ever come of it!

 

[steptoe]

OK, so I can park on your drive Mr Skelton and I am not breaking any law?

my van cant trespass, ?

and, if you move my van I can actually prosecute you for criminal damage,

how do you propose to move my van without touching it?

as soon as you touch it you have broke the law, that is a fact, its NOT your property, so you are not allowed to touch it,

Ive been down this road[pardon the pun] before.

 

[D Skelton]

OK, so I can park on your drive Mr Skelton and I am not breaking any law?

You are correct, you are breaking no law

my van cant trespass, ?

Technically, no

and, if you move my van I can actually prosecute you for criminal damage,

No you can't, you can only have me prosecuted for criminal damage if I actually caused deliberate and wilfull damage to your property

how do you propose to move my van without touching it?

I can touch it all I want mate

as soon as you touch it you have broke the law, that is a fact, its NOT your property, so you are not allowed to touch it,

Wrong. Just touching something that isn't yours doesn't constitute a criminal offence. If this were the case we'd end up doing bird for every apple we picked up at the supermarket to check for blemishes! lol

Ive been down this road[pardon the pun] before.

Then whoever has previously given you advice whilst on this road is talking out their rear end I'm afraid.

 

[steptoe]

Then whoever has previously given you advice whilst on this road is talking out their rear end I'm afraid.

it was a magistrate in a crown court.!

just because tesco doesnt prosecute you for touching their apples doesnt mean its ok,

 

[D Skelton]

it was a magistrate in a crown court.!

just because tesco doesnt prosecute you for touching their apples doesnt mean its ok,

Nonsense man!!!

I can categorically tell you that purely touching someone elses property does not constitute a criminal offence!

You have misheard the magistrate.

 

[steptoe]

Nonsense man!!!

I can categorically tell you that purely touching someone elses property does not constitute a criminal offence!

You have misheard the magistrate.

I didnt say it did,

I said that if you try to move my van from your driveway you have broke the law.

how can you possibly prove that you have not damaged my van in any way?

ok, so I didnt come across very well,

as soon as you touch my van you leave yourself open to all sorts of litigation imaginable,

I think you are one of these people that think the law owes you something,

I dont look for loopholes, I hold my hands up fairly, if its something underhand them I will look at it otherwise,

personally, if I park somewhere I am willing to pay for the priviledge,

if you park on my drive, you will be lucky to be able to drive your van away.!

as for mishearing the magistrate,,,,,,

that is definately not a possibility,

my lawyer spelt out exactly what he meant,

along with the term dealt to me,

...........

 

[D Skelton]

I didnt say it did,

Yes you did

I said that if you try to move my van from your driveway you have broke the law.

No, you said, and I quote: "as soon as you touch it you have broke the law, that is a fact, its NOT your property, so you are not allowed to touch it". Anyway, moving your van from my driveway is not against the law as long as I don't damage it.

Look at this from another angle and you will see how ludicrous what you are saying is; For a moment replace 'van' with 'tin of beans'. Imagine you pay a visit the shop at the end of my road and buy a tin of baked beans, you paid for the tin so legally it is then your property. If you then stopped on the pavement at the top of my driveway and neatly placed that tin of beans actually on my driveway... On my property... Are you saying that it would be illegal... That I would be committing a criminal offence... If I were to walk to the top of my drive, pick up your tin of beans... Your property... And neatly place it on to the pavement, off my property, without damaging it?

Think about it...

how can you possibly prove that you have not damaged my van in any way?

It's not up to me to prove that I didn't damage it, it's up to you to prove that I did. In British law the defendant is innocent until proven guilty.

as soon as you touch my van you leave yourself open to all sorts of litigation imaginable,

No I don't, not in the slightest.

I think you are one of these people that think the law owes you something,

First of all, no I don't. Secondly, Where have I indicated this? We are talking about private companies giving people unenforcable invoices, not law breaking activities?!

I hold my hands up fairly, if its something underhand them I will look at it otherwise,

As do I. If I do wrong then I do wrong and I will admit it. Throwing an unenforcable invoice in the bin however is not wrong, it is common sense!

personally, if I park somewhere I am willing to pay for the priviledge,

And I'm not. If it's council I pay because I have to, if it's private then I have no intention of paying. The only exception is things like the national trust car parks. I'll pay because I support the cause.

if you park on my drive, you will be lucky to be able to drive your van away.!

I have no intention of parking on your drive, you were the one who wanted to park on mine! lol.

as for mishearing the magistrate,,,,,,

that is definately not a possibility,

my lawyer spelt out exactly what he meant,

along with the term dealt to me,

...........

But at the start of your reply, this very reply that I'm quoting now, you said that you didn't say that touching someones property constitutes a criminal offence. Now you say that you didn't mishear the magistrate which implies that the magistrate says that just touching someones property is a criminal offence. I think you're confusing yourself.

What is it exactly that the magistrate said to you, word for word?

I really can't see what is so hard to grasp here?

 

[Sharpend]

http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/private-parking-tickets

Other variants are on the web if you care to search??

 

[Doc Hudson]

http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/private-parking-tickets

Other variants are on the web if you care to search??

I note from the link given; "Out of more than 14,700 people who've launched appeals via this system since Oct 2012, 45% have been successful".So is that saying since October 2012 55% have failed in their claim? I would think the bottom line with these situations is not about the legality or not, more about the economic viability. Is it worth pursuing a legal action to recoup less than £100, maybe not? Could be similar to one of us pursuing a non paying customer >£1,000+ outstanding probably go ahead, <£100- or less, the hassle and time may not be worth while, just write it off as a business loss. 

Doc H.

 

[apprentice87]

In a similar vein;

One day i was coming back from london or somewhere to south wales. When i got to the severn bridge, all i had was my bank card. They said that they did not take them.. I said, "well everyone else does, you must have something wrong with you"

They tried to tell me that i had to fill in some form, and that they would send me a bill in the post plus an extra £10

Needlless to say, I told them to get stuffed. They tried to get clever with me, and told me i had to fill in the form or they would get the police!!.

I told them that they could do what they liked, i had not "consented to the risk" and if they had a sign on the approach to the bridge that had clearly stated that this was their terms, i would have gone into the services 200 yards away and got them the money. Further, there was no problem, and that i would simply leave the car where it was, walk to the services, and get them their £5 or what ever it was.

They flatly refused and decided to box my car in with cones and told me that they were getting the police!!!!! Yeah right!!!.

I told them that this was perfectly ok with me, and nothing would please me more, because then i would be able to report them for false imprisonment, an offence that WILL cause you to be jailed!!! So run along and get the police!!!

Remember now, you CAN do a "citizens arrest for an "arrestable offence" Not having the money, but offering to go and get it. or even flatly refusing to pay, would be a "civil tort" an entirely different thing..... I was offering to pay, they would not let me....

Anyway, needless to say, no police arrived, big surprise eh!!!

I was just about to forcibly break off their barrier thing in order to proceed, [No, not criminal damage, especially as, "no court shall come to the aid of a man who founds his case on illegality"] and besides, your criminal damage, is going to look a little sad alongside my false imprisonment, when a chap pulled up alongside in a very nice BMW convertible....

Happily for me, i was with a rather nice young lady.. oh... go on... i know you want to see...

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x373/resistance87/2006_0320Image0002.jpg

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x373/resistance87/2007_0211Image0017Dianewaswonderful.jpg

Anyway, the chap in the BMW asks Diane, what is the matter?? Have you broken down?? No she says, and explains.

The Chap tells the bridge people that; Here is £10 for "me and them in that car" The bridge people tried to get funny and told him that he was "not allowed to pay for others"!!!!!!!!!

Now, BMW man did not get about £60k's worth of car for nothing, and told them in no uncertain terms that he was paying for me and that was that... They were not happy.....

I memorised the back end of his reg number, and told Diane to remember the front part, as i was going to trace him and pay him back, but dopey Di forgot her bit....

So, if you are the nice chap with a BMW that paid for a muppet [Me!!] and cute Di in a renault 19 to cross the severn bridge... Thank you very much!!!

john....

So moral of the story is; If you DO go to the Severn bridge and got no money [they DO take bank cards now] be sure to take some totty with you!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[ProDave]

Just my two pence on this subject.

I think it's wrong to charge you to park on what is supposed to be a rest area.  If I'm travelling and need a sleep, I simply exit the motorway onto the nearest A or B road and just find a roadside layby to park in with no charge or time limit.  the Motorway services shoot themselves in the foot with this policy.  Had I had a nice rest in their car park I might pop in for a coffee before continuing my journey.  But as they are so hostile to drivers needing a rest they won't get my custom in that way.

But there is an interesting twist to this.  It's not actually a parking "fine" they give you, but legally an "invoice"

Here's one twist to how it can work out (borrowed from another forum)

I parked in excess of the 2 hours free at a service station and got a Charge Notice asking for £50 if paid within 14 days or £90 within 28 days.

2 weeks after the date of the notice I wrote to the Charge Notice issuer and said that they had failed to detail their costs associated with the breach of contract, had failed to specify their authority to act and had failed to provide signage compliant with the BPA British Parking Association Code of Practice. I enclosed a cheque for £12 being the normal sum they charged for parking in excess of 2 hours.

They sent a reminder 2 weeks after the date of the Notice and I sent a reminder to them by registered post asking for a reply, 2 weeks later a Legal Action Pending letter now asking for £130 in 14 days and 3 weeks later a letter accepting the £12 in full and final settlement.

Some advice: never reply to these people by email. They have a Johnny-no-mates in an attic somewhere sat at a computer waiting for your email. Use the post, they aren't geared up for that. Registered post forces them to go to the PO to collect the letter.

Refusing to declare who the driver is, is not sufficient reason to ignore them. In fact better to politely reply just in case it goes to a small claims court and you can show you have complied where possible. The defence is the charge for the breach of contract being totally unreasonable. These people are scammers.

 

[apprentice87]

Hi all,

Bit of time to write now...

Now then, trespass is, [with a few exceptions] not an offence, it is a civil tort. Nothing a land owner can do, he cannot impose fines at all. He cannot even sue you, [as he would have to establish that he has incurred a loss due to your actions] otherwise he would not have "actionable cause"

All he can do is to get an injunction to stop you doing it.... If your action impedes the lawful use of the land however, you will, [unless you are a pikey] be arrested.

So, does this mean you can park where you like???

Absolutely NOT, and anyone that thinks you can is an idiot... I will tell you why.

A contract has three parts; These are, "an offer" "an acceptance" and a "consideration" [payment of some kind] Without ALL three, any contract is null and void.

So, a land owner cannot fine you, he cannot just persue you for some arbitary sum, but he CAN do something.. I will explain what.....

The land owner [in the sort of cases we are on about here] made an offer, He put up a sum saying quite clearly that you could park there for 2 hours for free, but after that you had to pay. [To get anywhere, precisely how much you would have to pay, would have to be displayed on a sign, or otherwise brought to your attention, without this, Mr landowner has no case]

Anyway, in motorway services [and other private car parks] there is always a sign to this effect setting out the charges.

So, the landowner has made an "offer"

Now, by parking there for more than the permitted time, you have accepted his offer, you have shown this by your actions, so there is the "acceptance"

Finally, the "consideration" this is present too.

So, no, the land owner cannot send you a bill for some arbitary sum, but what he CAN do, is to sue you for the outstanding sum.

You are guaranteed to lose.....

Whether the landowner can be bothered to do this is entirely up to him, but a simple £3 search at the land registry will show if you own you house, and if you do, the landowner will county court you as he will almost certainly win, and if you refuse to pay, he can simply have a charge entered against your title to the property. It might take him a long time, but he will get his money.....

Downside, is he might not get it for a long time, BUT he can apply to the court for interest, [he does not get this automatically] and in the meantime he will paralyse any dispositions involving the house, so no secured loans, no selling or otherwise transfering the house either, not to a transferee that has a brain anyway..

All i can say is, what do you think Judge Judy would say???? "You saw the sign, you parked there, judgement for the plaintive....."

What makes you think that county court judges here are any less direct.......

john....

 

[apprentice87]

Oh yes, just thought i would add here, that anyone that makes statements to the effect that it is not "against the law" to park on someone's drive, is an idiot...

It would disrupt the lawful activities of the landowners use of his land, Steps, the spark would not be able to get his van out. This makes it aggravated trespass, you will be arrested, make no mistake at all. "

Aggravated Trespass
"The offence of aggravated trespass is committed when a person trespasses on land when a lawful activity is taking place on that land or land nearby and he or she does anything intending to intimidate, obstruct or disrupt that activity"

Note the "does anything"

"Anything" clearly includes parking a van in Steps the sparkies way.....

john..

 

 

[electro1]

that is crazy