Some people just haven't got a clue. Your thoughts on this one?

[ProDave]

I've just been to look at a job. A tenanted house that was refurbished, including a full rewire 1 year ago. Tenant is complaining at high electricity bills

 

[Apache]

Can't you get them to change the meter and split the boiler and heating away into a second CU? Or run the whole house so that it's cheap rate at night and wire the heating through some kind of timeswitch?

What hours is the cheap rate electricity provided?

We have economy 7 and our storage heaters on a seperate CU, but everything is run off cheap rate at night. So we do washing/dishwasher etc.

 

[ProDave]

This "total control" is a complicated one. There are TWO meters, and three outputs.

One meter (the one that everything is presently connected to) is metered at the peak rate 24/7 and is intended for all normal things like sockets, lighting etc.

The second meter meters at the cheap rate and has two outputs. One is on 24/7 and is intended for things like showers and space heating like panel heaters. The other output from the cheap rate meter is only energised over night and is intended for storage heaters.

So I need to get the boiler powered from the cheap rate meter. The only way to do that is another CU, and because I can't see a way to connect meter tails from the meter to the same CU location without trashing the wall, I'm proposing to put the cheap rate meter in the garage.

The odd things about that would be completely different locations for the two CU's and is it okay to run meter tails on the surface in trunking about 1 metre along an outside wall?

There's a 4 pole isolator in the meter box already to isolate all outputs together.

 

[Apache]

This "total control" is a complicated one. There are TWO meters, and three outputs.One meter (the one that everything is presently connected to) is metered at the peak rate 24/7 and is intended for all normal things like sockets, lighting etc.

The second meter meters at the cheap rate and has two outputs. One is on 24/7 and is intended for things like showers and space heating like panel heaters. The other output from the cheap rate meter is only energised over night and is intended for storage heaters.

So what your saying is there is 2 rates of electricity available in the day time? Why not put it all on the cheaper rate? Am I missing something here? Is the system just built on 'trust' that you won't?

The odd things about that would be completely different locations for the two CU's and is it okay to run meter tails on the surface in trunking about 1 metre along an outside wall?

Why not use SWA for the run?

 

[Andy™]

trunking outside is just rough. better to use conduit

 

[ProDave]

So what your saying is there is 2 rates of electricity available in the day time? Why not put it all on the cheaper rate? Am I missing something here? Is the system just built on 'trust' that you won't?Why not use SWA for the run?

Yes in theory you could connect the whole house onto the 24/7 cheap rate, but presumably they police it and expect some peak rate to be used. I'm sure they would investigate if all usage was at the cheap rate. This is a preserved tariff no longer available to new customers. Perhaps such abuse is why.

trunking outside is just rough. better to use conduit

I will probably use 10mm SWA and just connect the boiler to the cheap rate supply. My concern was if I was going to put the shower onto the cheap rate CU as well I would need at least 16mm, so thought of normal meter tails in trunking, but agree it would be hard to get it to look good.

 

[ProDave]

I think I've just been played like a fiddle.

I've just spoken to the owner, who was not really interested in hearing how I would put this right or how much it would cost to put right.

He just wanted to know how it got to be so wrong and told me a bit about the history of the property being flooded and then totally gutted and refurbished and rewired.

He said he would get back to me, but I got the distinct impression I've just given him a free verbal survey so he can go and raise a stink with whoever did the refurbisment and get them to put it right.

I guess some you win......

 

[a1]

I think I've just been played like a fiddle.I've just spoken to the owner, who was not really interested in hearing how I would put this right or how much it would cost to put right.

He just wanted to know how it got to be so wrong and told me a bit about the history of the property being flooded and then totally gutted and refurbished and rewired.

He said he would get back to me, but I got the distinct impression I've just given him a free verbal survey so he can go and raise a stink with whoever did the refurbisment and get them to put it right.

I guess some you win......

Typical, isn't it?

 

[Badger]

recently i did 2 quotes, one for a business owner with 2 metal foundaries and a house, and another wanting cctv at a garden center, both havent even phoned me back to thank me for the quotes, but i got the distinct impression that they wanted it done for nothing,

 

[ProDave]

Well Wet Fish

I thought this one was dead and burried, but out of the blue today, I had a phone call asking me to give a price for this job.

Being suspicious I asked about why the huge delay, and they came clean that they had been trying to get the previous spark to put right his mistakes FOC, but had been unable to contact him and he wasn't replying to messages, so now they are going to "take it on the chin" and pay for someone else to put it right.

So I'll give him a price, but won't be surprised if I'm back here in a few weeks complaining that he hasn't paid me. Somehow I don't think I trust him as far as I could throw a piano.

 

[Andy™]

So I'll give him a price, but won't be surprised if I'm back here in a few weeks complaining that he hasn't paid me. Somehow I don't think I trust him as far as I could throw a piano.

get payment in advance?

 

[PC Electrics]

Well Wet FishI thought this one was dead and burried, but out of the blue today, I had a phone call asking me to give a price for this job.

Being suspicious I asked about why the huge delay, and they came clean that they had been trying to get the previous spark to put right his mistakes FOC, but had been unable to contact him and he wasn't replying to messages, so now they are going to "take it on the chin" and pay for someone else to put it right.

So I'll give him a price, but won't be surprised if I'm back here in a few weeks complaining that he hasn't paid me. Somehow I don't think I trust him as far as I could throw a piano.

If the owner has any sense he'll try to sue the original electrician to get some monies back.

For you, modify your standard terms and insist on a deposit at least large enough to cover materials. Also ask for some kind of staged payment for the rest - if you don't get it, you stop work.

Oh, and don't forget to add in a "buggeration factor".

On the tech front: won't you need to run a 16mm earth conductor to the garage CU? In which case why not just use 3 core 16mm swa instead of buggering about with tails in conduit?

 

[ProDave]

Yes I think you are right.

In the scheme of things this is a small job, not one I "need" but I don't need any hassle.

So yes, I'll send my quote asking for payment for materials up front and payment of labour on completion. The job is too small for stage payments.

I do have a spare offcut of 5 core 10mm SWA (left over from a 3 phase job) Awfully tempted to use that. 2 cores in parallel for L, 2 cores in parallel for N and 1 core plus SWA in parallel for CPC. What do you think of that idea? It's only a 2 metre long run at most.

 

[PC Electrics]

I thought the main earth conductor had to be copper. Or is someone going to tell me I'm wrong about that?

Any way, 4m of 3c 16mm swa isn't even going to be 20 quid.

 

[ProDave]

I thought the main earth conductor had to be copper. Or is someone going to tell me I'm wrong about that?Any way, 4m of 3c 16mm swa isn't even going to be 20 quid.

Very true.

Thinking about it, this job needs to be done right. Or else there will be another electrician looking at it "to give a quote" to try and wriggle out of paying.

 

[Andy™]

I thought the main earth conductor had to be copper. Or is someone going to tell me I'm wrong about that?Any way, 4m of 3c 16mm swa isn't even going to be 20 quid.

SWA can be used, but if bonding is to be connected, then CSA of armour must be of copper equivalent

 

[PC Electrics]

[quote name='Andy

 

[PC Electrics]

Ah, good. I was using 8.55.

Resistivity of copper = 0.15, steel = 0.01754. So ratio = 8.55

taken from Bosch Automotive Handbook

 

[Andy™]

Does anyone know where we can look up the copper equivalent sizes for the armour of various sizes of swa?I've recently had to calculate it using basic material properties looked up in an engineering resource. i could find the actual csa of the armour on manufacturers sites, but not the copper equivalent. Any clues?

as Plumber says, steel equivalent is 8x copper

 

[steptoe]

I think the question was how do you work out the cross section size of the armour of a certain size SWA.?

up to 16mm you dont need to worry, the voltage drop will stop before your earth does.

HTH as a very simplified answer.