Someone checked one of my jobs this week. Interesting.

[ProDave]

Being self employed, and not a member of a scam, it's rare for someone to scrutinise one of my jobs, but they did this week.

It was a timber new build chalet on a private estate. In this case, the estate owner was responsible for providing a supply, in effect making them the DNO. They regularly employ the same firm of electricians to maintain their system and make new connections.

So these other sparks came to make the connection, but unlike a normal DNO wanted to see my EIC (not completed yet, but I was able to show them the hand written schedule of test results)

But before making the connection, they wanted to inspect and test a sample of the circuits, just to make sure.

They were generally happy, apart from 2 things they made me "put right" before they would make the connection. These were:

2 way lighting circuits with 3 core & earth cable. There were a couple of 2 way lighting circuits wired so that all 3 cores of the interlinking cables were live (or switched live). So given that 3c&e is brown, grey and black, and these are all phase colours, I hadn't sleeved them. These guys insisted I sleeved them all brown. My logic is they are all phase colours, so don't need sleeving, their logic is 2 of the cores are L2 and L3 so should be sleeved brown to show they are L1. Who is right?

Off peak CU. Just 2 circuits (2 storage heaters) So this was a small CU with an RCD incomer and two 16A MCB's. These guys insisted I replaced the RCD with a 100A 2 pole switch. I told them the cables were in the walls at less than 50mm so needed RCD protection, but they wouldn't budge, saying they never fit RCD's to storage heaters. So I had to change it to get them to make the connection. Talk about between a rock and a hard place, my installation now no longer meets 17th edition. What would you do?

And the last thing, at the time of their visit, I still had just a few light fittings to connect. So after some basic testing, they unplugged the fuse and took it away again. They came back an hour later, and only when the rest of the light fittings were in place would they make the connection permanent. That I took as a bit of an insult, as they were in effect, not trusting me to isolate a lighting circuit before working on it.

It's a good job all DNO's are not like this.

Anyway, apart from the above, it was good that they had no real problems with my work, and even commented the wiring inside the CU was dressed nicely.

 

[Sidewinder]

They are WELL out of order making you convert your installation so that it no longer complies with 7671 & I would make a point of this to the REAL DNO & anyone else who will listen.

I have contacts in SELECT if it helps.

They are 5h1t5.

Else well done mate!

 

[Andy™]

part 1: you should have had them sleeved brown.

part 2: tell them to put it in writing that they want you to deviate from 7671, otherwise its staying how it is. and that they will also have to sign for design.

 

[ProDave]

Thanks for the clarifications. I've never had a problem putting blue sleeving on any non blue cable used as a neutral, I just never thought about sleeving a "phase" coloured cable used as L in a single phase install. I guess I'll be using more brown sleeving now.

The guys that told me to remove the RCD are members of Select, so they should have known better. Should I be contacting Select to "discuss" this with them?

I will almost certainly be going back, so the RCD is going back in when I do.

 

[PC Electrics]

You should ask them to put point 2 in writing. Reply that they are requesting you to deviate from BS7671:2008 and that you are not prepared to do so. If they insist tell them you will contact SELECT and ask for their mediation.

Someone clearly does not understand the need for RCDs on buried cables.

And anyway, what is the problem with RCDs on storage heaters? AFAIAC this business of 'leaky' heaters is just rubbish, unless the elements are breaking down. Oh, and btw, Dimplex tech help supported this view when I asked them some time ago. Having said that, i would put in RCBOs by choice rather than an RCD covering several heaters.

 

[nsbs]

That

 

[Evans Electric]

Years ago the old DNO (MEB = Midlands Electricity Board) in this area thought they were the Electric Police ( Well some of them) and some of them acted in just the way you describe .

Had a slight run in with the latest version who are Eon & Central Networks , they turned up to supply an earth terminal and asked why I hadn't changed the tails from 16 to 25 mm . I said (a) We haven't changed the board and (B) its a 60A main fuse . We'd only installed bonding.

He reckoned we have to change them all so they can upgrade their fuses if the want to .

Then I say OK seeing as you're here , unseal the meter and we'll do it now.

He says no, he.s not allowed to work on the meter .

What a country !!!

 

[Megaohm7]

I would have put brown sleeving on the grey and black cores myself.

I would have done just has you did with regards the rcd protection as it's complying with BS7671 17th ed. I could understand their thinking if it was for a dedicated circuit like for a fridge or freezer but for storage heaters? I've never heard of it before. It's all about covering your own butt at the end of the day and you was complying with the regs.

 

[Ali]

My boss never used to sleeve his 3 core brown but I always have, sometimes I had to sneak the sleeving on when he wasn't looking otherwise he'd sigh and call me a jobsworth:O

Then I did my 2391 practical and one of the faults was that there was no brown sleeving on the grey and black cores of the 3 core cable. I told my boss the next day and he said:

"Hah, Brian Scaddon, what does he know????"

I was horrified (because we all know that Brian is the king of electrics) and I looked over to see my boss doubled up laughing. He now sleeves his strappers and we have a new catchphrase

 

[Badger]

in fairness i sleeve my 3 core but id have put rcbos in the board, y not ust refit that rcd after they have made the juicey power

 

[Ash]

The logic behind sleeving brown is because it's all running on the one phase.

If there was ever a time where it was needed, you'd sleeve all the conductors black or grey, but I can't really think of any situation where that would occur.

I don't understand their thought process of not having the RCD when there is so much focus on stopping people getting electrocuted at home.

I personally try to avoid not RCDing something in any domestic situation.

 

[Badger]

i cant see why the manufacturers cant just put 3 brown cores together and put a stamp or print writing on the one side easy peasy

 

[Zeespark]

If its 6243YH Badge you can just tell from looking at it by looking at the orientation of the CPC.

AndyGuinness

 

[Evans Electric]

The way I see it, Badge, is that 3core /E (6243Y ) is'nt used for 3phase much (in my experience) . We all use it domestically for 2way switching , timer fans and linking smoke alarms , so I'd like to see a new cable introduced with :-

Brown........Permanent Live

Blue ........ Neutral

New colour ..... switch wires/ link wire /trigger wire

We don't want 3 brown cores then have to buzz them out ( Thing is in poor light conditions , like a building site ) the browns look like black anyway so we'd struggle to see any small markings ( well I would , I'm blind as a bat )

Would'nt work on 2 ways , back to colour marking again . It just seems so bloody stupid to be installing a cable then changing all the core colours FFS

It speaks for itself , that 3c E needs amending .

Thats it , bring in the 18th edition , another book to buy with the money we hav'nt got .

On fans and smokes I use :-

Brown = L

Grey = SW

Black = N

Isn't that dreadful

 

[m4tty]

Thats what I use too lol

 

[ProDave]

The way I see it, Badge, is that 3core /E (6243Y ) is'nt used for 3phase much (in my experience) . We all use it domestically for 2way switching , timer fans and linking smoke alarms , so I'd like to see a new cable introduced with :-Brown........Permanent Live

Blue ........ Neutral

New colour ..... switch wires/ link wire /trigger wire

We don't want 3 brown cores then have to buzz them out ( Thing is in poor light conditions , like a building site ) the browns look like black anyway so we'd struggle to see any small markings ( well I would , I'm blind as a bat )

Would'nt work on 2 ways , back to colour marking again . It just seems so bloody stupid to be installing a cable then changing all the core colours FFS

It speaks for itself , that 3c E needs amending .

Thats it , bring in the 18th edition , another book to buy with the money we hav'nt got .

On fans and smokes I use :-

Brown = L

Grey = SW

Black = N

Isn't that dreadful

+1 to that.

I have argued before that it's a poor show the colours we are stuck with on 3 core.

Careful, there's some on this forum that don't like black being used as neutral. Personally I do, but with a bit of blue sleeving.

 

[Couleddie]

Would be interesting to know their reasoning behind disallowing the RCDs on storage heaters. Do they class them as different to other current using devices. Further down the line what if someone was to remove the storage heaters and replace the DP switches sockets? OK, so that's speculative but as far as I can make out, if it's buried less than 50mm it has an RCD. Shouldn't make a difference what the circuit is supplying.

As for sleeving, it always amuses me how such a huge deal is made over this. I would guess that most of us here can recognise the strappers in a 2 way switch as live or do we suffer cold sweats and brown pants if we come across those pesky old wiring colours. Still, I always sleeve strappers as a matter of course with the black neutral getting a blue. Don't see the issue with using black as neutral. Seems the obvious choice.

Perhaps the 'authorities' (as they would probably like to think of themselves) need to concentrate on weeding out the truly appalling jobs instead of getting the backs up of the good guys.

 

[Doc Hudson]

Are these chalets rental properties or holiday homes under the management of a landlord? It could be argued that the home user is not going to be doing any drilling or nailing into the walls without the guidance of the skilled persons employed by the landlord. In which case the RCDs could be neglected.

Doc H.

 

[Ash]

I use the black (blue sleeved) as neutral because it seems the obvious choice, I can understand the reason not to, but let's face it we won't be seeing the end of the old colours in domestic for a long long time.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

I use the black (blue sleeved) as neutral because it seems the obvious choice, I can understand the reason not to, but let's face it we won't be seeing the end of the old colours in domestic for a long long time.

headbang :C

bad practice..

poor atitude IMHO..

why bother sleeving at all if you are that way inclined!?

:|

p.s.

there aint no neutral in a 3-core 2-way switch cable....

they are ALL lives!!!!