Stephens1974 gripes from Hi-Jacked thread

[stephen1974]

Wow, this thread is not a good advert for getting help from the members of this forum thats for sure. Seems more people interested in bashing students than helping them.

http://www.talk.electricianforum.co.uk/student-learning-zone-c-g-2330-levels-2-3-c-g-2381-c-g-2391-other-co/16947-need-help-few-questions.html

I understand these courses are not popular with existing electricians and I appreciate why. I'm on the new career skills course as well and it's a joke that they are allowed to teach in this way, but students pay a lot of money for it and the attitudes of give up, find a new career, do it all again, are neither welcome nor realistic. The time he has to do it in IS relevant. A lot of people doing these courses have had to borrow money and cant afford to borrow another 6 or 7K to do it all again, or to keep paying out

 

[Manator]

Welcome to the forum stephen1974, your comments like all comments past and present are always welcome and is why forums exist. The problem we have and our members have is the fact that we recognise these courses but often would not advise anyone of taking them for the reasons posted in this thread.

Learning anything can not be acheived without basic understanding of the fundementals. If every answer was spoon fed to a student he may pass an exam, but would have no idea why. Our record of help, advise and assistance on this forum is second to none, and is a testament of our members involvement over a long period of time. I would agree, some answers can be a little abrupt, even rude in some instances but we always discourage this, but is a fact of life with some members having very strong views on some matters.

You yourself have admitted the shortfalls of undertaking such a course.

 

[steptoe]

Wow, this thread is not a good advert for getting help from the members of this forum thats for sure. Seems more people interested in bashing students than helping them. I understand these courses are not popular with existing electricians and I appreciate why. I'm on the new career skills course as well and it's a joke that they are allowed to teach in this way, but students pay a lot of money for it and the attitudes of give up, find a new career, do it all again, are neither welcome nor realistic. The time he has to do it in IS relevant. A lot of people doing these courses have had to borrow money and cant afford to borrow another 6 or 7K to do it all again, or to keep paying out

 

[stephen1974]

You cant understand the fundamentals without learning them. Hence why hes asking questions. Its not the OP's fault he hasnt been taught what he needs to know. As students we have to take it on faith that what we are being taught is correct and that we are being taught everything that we need to know. When we dont know something, its not our fault. We are asking the question because we want to learn. We dont need people gobbing off telling us we are usless and what we are doing is a waste of time.

Maybe people were having a bad day as looking at other questions the same people have gone on to provide sound advice which is great. I hope that if I decide to ask questions that i'll get a useful response. I'm just trying to get the point across that we are asking questions because we need your help, not your scorn.

 

[steptoe]

I cant speak for anyone else, but myself personally,

Im only pointing out a basic fact of life that doing a short college course will NOT make you an electrician, or anything close to resembling one.

from my experience of them they will teach you how to pass an exam, not how to become a professional tradesman.

 

[stephen1974]

I agree. Unfortunately this is what's on offer. I can't do a college course and I can't do an apprenticeship. In both cases I need a suitable income so for people like me these courses are the only realistic option. As I said, we have to take it on faith that what we are going to be taught is sufficient. Now that i'm on it, I can see that it isnt really sufficient, however, it's a useful first step, besides, i'm not about to give up on 6k because its not a great course. For questions I dont know I could just look for a cut and paste option from the internet, but i'd rather ask for some advice and have people explain not only the how but the why as well so that I fully understand things.

I dont expect to be a professional tradesmen at the end of the course. I'm not about to go off and start my own business claiming im an electrician. I hope to be able to use it to get in to get a foot in the door and earn a reasonable wage, no more. I'd just like a little help in geting there when I need it.

 

[Doc Hudson]

Wow, this thread is not a good advert for getting help from the members of this forum thats for sure. Seems more people interested in bashing students than helping them. I understand these courses are not popular with existing electricians and I appreciate why. I'm on the new career skills course as well and it's a joke that they are allowed to teach in this way, but students pay a lot of money for it and the attitudes of give up, find a new career, do it all again, are neither welcome nor realistic. The time he has to do it in IS relevant. A lot of people doing these courses have had to borrow money and cant afford to borrow another 6 or 7K to do it all again, or to keep paying out

 

[batty]

I agree. Unfortunately this is what's on offer. I can't do a college course and I can't do an apprenticeship. In both cases I need a suitable income so for people like me these courses are the only realistic option. As I said, we have to take it on faith that what we are going to be taught is sufficient. Now that I'm on it, I can see that it isn't really sufficient, however, it's a useful first step, besides, I'm not about to give up on 6k because its not a great course. For questions I don't know I could just look for a cut and paste option from the Internet, but I'd rather ask for some advice and have people explain not only the how but the why as well so that I fully understand things. I don't expect to be a professional tradesmen at the end of the course. I'm not about to go off and start my own business claiming im an electrician. I hope to be able to use it to get in to get a foot in the door and earn a reasonable wage, no more. I'd just like a little help in getting there when I need it.

I am glad that you are not going out as an electrician after passing this course. I will say its a shame a few more have not realised a short course will make them an electrician. The reason I say this I see more and more poor jobs where so called electricians have done very poor work and they don't even understand earthing systems and they have done work which could actually cause a fire and kill people. It sounds like you have your head screwed on and are not afraid to ask to learn.

 

[stephen1974]

College courses are still available from numerous educational establishments.Doc H..

That doesnt mean they are suitable for everyone. I for example work various shift patterns in a business thats open 14 hours a day. A college course isn't an option because I can't guarentee that I can make the lessons. A full time course isnt an option because I need a 20K a year income to live.

if you go back to the original question the OP did not even attempt to answer any of the question he posted. This method of asking for advice is proven to be unhelpful typically it is just laziness and to expect others to answer their homework for them without even trying themselves is rude to say the least.Doc H..

Thats an assumption on your part. He may well have tried to answer them and got no where before he even thought about positing on the forum. When I ask questions on forums I dont necesarily post what I think the answer might be. Some times I dont have a clue what the answer might be because its never been covered by the tutors. Example, this series of questions.

2. State how the electrical contractor for this installation may minimise costs, with particular reference to:

a. Cash Flow.

b. Efficient use of labour resources.

c. Effective inspection and testing procedures.

Despite managing budgets in my job really couldnt answer these because I have no idea how the business side of the trade works. It may be absoloutely no different to what I do now, but it may be completely different. I have nothing to base my answers on. I've seen other people ask about this particular question and some of the answers i've seen suggests half the industry is on the fiddle, other answers suggest you guys have to live a lot more hand to mouth than I do with my business, so its not something ive experienced.

I agree that trying to get people to do your work for you is lazy and rude, but your again making an assumption about the students intentions.

Everyone is entitled to ask any questions, but as all contributions are voluntary and free of charge on the forum all of our members are also entitled to their own personal opinions as well. To expect everyone else to think that all training providers are great and give good quality teaching is unrealistic and to think that other members cannot say that a particular product or service is not good value (be it a fuse box or a C&G course) is also unrealisticDoc H..

Personal opinions are fine, personal attacks or presenting your opinion in an obnoxious fashion isnt. No one is saying you have to acknowledge the course as a good course, if its a bad one you should say so, but dont bad mouth the student at the same time. Point out the short comings of the course so the student can understand where they will be lacking and offer advice on how they can best make use of the course and what they should try and do once its finished. Don't just say your usless, the course is usless and you should give up and go flip burgers at mcdonalds or write off the 6k you've just spent and go put yourself further in debt doing it all again elsewhere.

Trying to lecture other people about how they offer any advice carries little validity on the forumDoc H..

And ****ging students off carries no validity at all.

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 14:35 ---------- Previous post was made at 13:54 ----------

And on that note, can anyone answer those questions I posted? ray

 

[apprentice87]

Hi All,

Just thought i would add; You can be TAUGHT things, yes you can, BUT UNDERSTANDING, YOU CAN NEVER BE TAUGHT.

Understanding you see, comes from within....Understanding come from a lot of reflection and a lot of questioning of YOURSELF.

You will never find a book on understanding, no matter how hard you look...... To understand, you must discover for yourself....

john.....

 

[Doc Hudson]

Thats an assumption on your part. He may well have tried to answer them and got no where before he even thought about positing on the forum. When I ask questions on forums I dont necesarily post what I think the answer might be. Some times I dont have a clue what the answer might be because its never been covered by the tutors.

I agree that trying to get people to do your work for you is lazy and rude, but your again making an assumption about the students intentions.

Personal opinions are fine, personal attacks or presenting your opinion in an obnoxious fashion isnt. No one is saying you have to acknowledge the course as a good course, if its a bad one you should say so, but dont bad mouth the student at the same time. Point out the short comings of the course so the student can understand where they will be lacking and offer advice on how they can best make use of the course and what they should try and do once its finished. Don't just say your usless,

And ****ging students off carries no validity at all.

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 14:35 ---------- Previous post was made at 13:54 ----------

And on that note, can anyone answer those questions I posted? ray

There were no assumptions on my part. The OP's first post made no attempt to offer any understanding of the problem. Just a list of questions. Even though he had previously been advised, (on another thread in August) that he would get more help from attempting the questions first. This makes it easier for others to set their answers at the suitable level. It is normal within adult education that there is a greater expectancy that students will be doing additional reading and research themselves not just relying on tutors covering all material. This principal is common throughout education once secondary school is completed and continues through most of the working life as various rules and regulations changed when outside of any education. Considering the content of some of your comments on this thread about how the forum operates you are bit like the pot calling the kettle black. I also note you have made no attempt to actually answer any of the OP's questions, you have only judged how others have posted and then taken the thread further off topic discussing your educational predicament. I would remind you that none of our members are obliged to offer any advice as to how someone can make best use of anything especially when they make little effort themselves to contribute to questions. We operate in the arena of adult education not spoon feeding children at primary level with the likes of answer a)= answer B)= etc. When you establish your own forum you can certainly decide how it is moderated and how you want people to answer, In the meanwhile if you wish to continue using this forum you will do best to respect the standards and opinions of others and not come bowling in with your first post complaining about how the forum runs. I would suggest if you have a genuine question to start your own thread rather than hi-jacking someone else

 

[green-hornet]

Stephen, we all want you and others to do well if you want to change a carreer, but we are not here to wrap you in cotton wool and herd you through the maze. You have stated that spending this extortionate amount of money on this course was the only option? I am afraid it was not, many of our members have gone to night classes for a fraction of the cost. You have also been a little conservative with the truth, spending

 

[steptoe]

ok, there is one thing continually gets my rise about all these people bleating about spending 6,7 or even more thousands of pounds to do a course that still wont make them an electrician,

I left school many moons ago and took an apprenticeship earning

 

[stephen1974]

I'm going to make this public because I think it highlights perfectly the bad attitude that i've seen on these forums. So Its ok for your forum members to abuse students, but when I stand up for students and try and give a rational view point on why they need your help I get a warning for it????

Dear stephen1974,

You have received an infraction at Talk.electricianforum.co.uk... a forum with a difference..

Reason: Argumentative attitude

-------

You would do well to have more respect for the forum its members and its standards of moderation.

-------

This infraction is worth 10 point(s) and may result in restricted access until it expires. Serious or repeated infractions will never expire.

Doc, I have no respect for you after that. None what so ever. Warn me, ban me, doesnt matter. Giving me a warning because I dont think you have the right to bad mouth people is nothing short of bullying.

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 18:00 ---------- Previous post was made at 17:52 ----------

Stephen, we all want you and others to do well if you want to change a carreer, but we are not here to wrap you in cotton wool and herd you through the maze. You have stated that spending this extortionate amount of money on this course was the only option? I am afraid it was not, many of our members have gone to night classes for a fraction of the cost. You have also been a little conservative with the truth, spending

 

[Sidewinder]

stephen,

Please be careful about the use of the term "part p qualification" there really is no such thing.

Part P is a building regulation.

There are courses in meeting building regulations, but, there is not "really" a nationally recognised course that gives you a "part p" qualification.

This could bring on doubts in possible employers minds.

One other question, you say you have a spark in your company who is about to retire that you have 9 sites across the country, that you want to be more use, that you already are a specialist where there are only 50 or so places that do what you do across the country.

Are you sure you will earn more as a spark?...

If your current role is very specialised then it is doubtful that you would be able to increase your income as a spark.

This short course you are on, most are intended for domestic installers, you look like you are hoping to work as an electrician for your employer, is this industrial, it can't be shops or warehousing, as there are more than 50 of these in the UK.

I would caution you about what will be taught on a "typical" intensive short course like this and the requirements of industrial machinery for example, which is not covered on one of these courses, as they are based on BS7671 which has nothing at all to do with BS7671!

A bit more info on what you are doing and then looking to do etc. would be good, perhaps you could start your own thread?

 

[stephen1974]

stephen,Please be careful about the use of the term "part p qualification" there really is no such thing.

Part P is a building regulation.

There are courses in meeting building regulations, but, there is not "really" a nationally recognised course that gives you a "part p" qualification.

This could bring on doubts in possible employers minds.

One other question, you say you have a spark in your company who is about to retire that you have 9 sites across the country, that you want to be more use, that you already are a specialist where there are only 50 or so places that do what you do across the country.

Are you sure you will earn more as a spark?...

If your current role is very specialised then it is doubtful that you would be able to increase your income as a spark.

This short course you are on, most are intended for domestic installers, you look like you are hoping to work as an electrician for your employer, is this industrial, it can't be shops or warehousing, as there are more than 50 of these in the UK.

I would caution you about what will be taught on a "typical" intensive short course like this and the requirements of industrial machinery for example, which is not covered on one of these courses, as they are based on BS7671 which has nothing at all to do with BS7671!

A bit more info on what you are doing and then looking to do etc. would be good, perhaps you could start your own thread?

I don't have the paperwork to hand but what ever EAL exam is regarding Part P, I have it, along with the city and guilds level 3 2832 and 2377 and currently i'm working towards the 2391 exam.

 

[Sidewinder]

Can someone move my last post please!

 

[Doc Hudson]

I'm going to make this public because I think it highlights perfectly the bad attitude that i've seen on these forums. So Its ok for your forum members to abuse students, but when I stand up for students and try and give a rational view point on why they need your help I get a warning for it????Dear stephen1974,

You have received an infraction at Talk.electricianforum.co.uk... a forum with a difference..

Reason: Argumentative attitude

-------

You would do well to have more respect for the forum its members and its standards of moderation.

-------

This infraction is worth 10 point(s) and may result in restricted access until it expires. Serious or repeated infractions will never expire.

Doc, I have no respect for you after that. None what so ever. Warn me, ban me, doesnt matter. Giving me a warning because I dont think you have the right to bad mouth people is nothing short of bullying.

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 18:00 ---------- Previous post was made at 17:52 ----------

Night classes is not an option. The majority of my shifts start in the middle of teh day and end between 10pm and 12pm.

I also never said I didnt want to use the certificates I get. In the work that I do we have one electrician for 9 different sites and hes due to retire. I saw this as an option to a) be more useful to teh company I work for and B) have skills I can use in a different career should I ever leave this line of work, particularly as what I do is pretty specialised and there are only 50 or so places in the country I could work.

As for the course qualiifications, i've already gained Part P with them.

This is ONE forum not "these" forums. If you actually stop and read the forum as a whole you will see there is considerably more assistance toward students than your alleged bad-mouthing, it is a fact of life that some people DO enroll on inappropriate courses for their abilities, if you cannot see that than you are possible a bit naive to the reality of the workplace. Part P is a building regulation, NOT a qualification, look up approved document P. Possibly you could have had the courtesy to open your own thread rather than hi-jacking someone else's thread. Clearly you dislike how this forum operates, so it is probably best for you to find another one more to your liking.

Doc H.

 

[Sidewinder]

stephen,

It looks like you have this:

http://www.eal.org.uk/res/pdf/public/structures/500_4385_7_st.pdf

I'm not sure though, if you want, I'll ask one of the guys I know at SEMTA tomorrow?

It seems as I suggested that you hold the NVQ2 in domestic electrical installations.

As far as the other questions go, what are you doing now that you are so fed up with that you want to become a spark!

Honestly, the money is NOT what the training providers say it is.

My company will hopefully turn over circa

 

[Doc Hudson]

Can someone move my last post please!

moved.

Doc H.

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 20:13 ---------- Previous post was made at 19:42 ----------

Just to confirm for the benefit of all members, when asking student questions, everyone will get more help from attempting questions first as it makes it easier for others to set their answers at the suitable level. This is the same whether a short course or an evening class. Adult education expects students to do additional reading and research themselves not just relying on tutors spoon feeding answers. None of our members are obliged to offer any advice at all, they volunteer their time, which often will be more forthcoming to those who have made an effort themselves. The thread Stephen was moaning about had several very basic questions that the OP had not made any attempt to answers.

Doc H.